Depo-Provera added to Forbidden Substances list for USEF effective Dec 1, 2019

[3PB]

@endlessclimb

Is anyone giving depo to spice a horse up? To make the lows less low?

Then it’s a sedative. Arguing it’s not is semantics.

Well since you mentioned it, actually… yes. I’ve known several horses who got depo, because they were occasionally balky at the leg and it made them more comfortable going forward and happier in their own skin.

[beowulf]

@3PB

Well since you mentioned it, actually… yes. I’ve known several horses who got depo, because they were occasionally balky at the leg and it made them more comfortable going forward and happier in their own skin.

I keep seeing “happier in their own skin” thrown around in this argument for why Depo shouldn’t be banned.

Doesn’t anyone who uses depo to make horses “happier in their own skin” consider that maybe the reason the horse is “unhappy in their own skin” is because something hurts?

Being balky at the leg is a pretty classic symptom of pain.

[findeight]

@mh97

No need to act supercilious. I think attitudes like this (on both sides of the issue) are why seems so difficult to have a civil and constructive discussion.

You realize the poster who is being “ supercilious”, IYO, is an Equine DVM?

Spoke to a trainer friend the other day who is thrilled about this…now they dont have to deal with owners demanding their geldings get Depo because it might help and “can’t possibly hurt”. In the real world, Pros are under a lot of pressure and depend on training income to live on, pretty sure many are relieved they can give a hard no to clients. Best Pro on the planet can’t trump peer pressure with the herd of lemmings out there.

There may be some legitimate uses out there but that should not translate to a large percentage of geldings in the show ring getting it just because somebody else used it successfully. Usually it’s because the successful horse was a better horse, better ridden to a better performance, not because it got a shot. Trainers and vets need to say no more often but need backup, and IMO, USEF has provided it here.

[StubbornHorse]

My horse was on depo for 2 years while showing competitively a few years ago. It didn’t change him being ridden at all, but he was just generally happier with turnout (he goes out 12 hours a day), trailering with foreign horses, stabling next to foreign horses, and just not being so angry all the time. He was gelded at 5 years old and kept that studdish attitude his whole life. He was an angel under saddle though. He is 14 now and not showing so this ruling doesn’t affect us anymore.
I do agree with the ruling overall because the use of depo has been abused, but I also understand where people are coming from with horses similar to mine.

[mh97]

@findeight

You realize the poster who is being “ supercilious”, IYO, is an Equine DVM?

Spoke to a trainer friend the other day who usthrikked about this…now they dont have to deal with owners demanding their geldings get Depo because it might help and “can’t possibly hurt”. I the real world, Pros are under a lot of pressure and depend on training income to live on, pretty sure many are relieved they can give a hard no to clients.

Whether or not something is an equine DVM doesn’t make a difference in whether or not they can communicate their point of view without acting condescending.

And, I that’s great for your trainer friend. It sounds like those clients aren’t wanting to use depo for appropriate reasons.

[findeight]

@mh97

Whether or not something is an equine DVM doesn’t make a difference in whether or not they can communicate their point of view without acting condescending.

And, I that’s great for your trainer friend. It sounds like those clients aren’t wanting to use depo for appropriate reasons.

IME, most clients in most barns couldn’t tell you what the appropriate reason to use Depo or many other drugs/ substances is. Lemmings…Monkey see, monkey do. If a little is good, more is better etc.

[RAyers]

@mh97

Please do not put words in my mouth. As I said several times already, if depo is truly dangerous it SHOULD be banned. However, yes, I believe in having actual scientific evidence to back up a claim. Maybe it’s the years I’ve spent in academia, as someone who holds a science degree and had the importance of scholarly, peer reviewed research driven into me, that is making me question many of the claims being made in this thread and elsewhere.

Wow, that is arrogantly ivory tower of you. And you may refer to me as Dr. Ayers as well. If you actually were a scientist, you could easily pull up studies that determine that MPA has no effect on the suppression of estrus in horses. I suggest looking at Dr. Patrick McCue at CSU for a recent study of 18 horses. And if you are really scientist, you would also understand how clinical research is able to pull significant results and conclusions from low numbers.

I am glad that MPA has been banned and that there is requisite clinical research that back this finding up.

[CanteringCarrot]

@cedarlake

The implant certainly does not calm my mare in any fashion but simply helps to ease any discomfort in her cycle. Otherwise she’s delightful to ride.

Competing with CBD oil does not fill training holes of any nature and certainly isn’t mind altering. It’s a great option for horses that just need to take a deep breath and focus. You can think what you want, I’m certainly not in a place to debate it. I know what works for me and the training level my horse is at. She’s just got headed. Nothing wrong with it and certainly not going to pull her away from a sport she loves to do because she gets excited. If you think I’m doing it for greed then perhaps you should rein back your assumptions just a bit. But I guess with those few sentences you can surely tell my character. Wish I had such an ability.

If you dont don’t want to model after my community fine, I never said it wasn’t without it’s problems. But at least when I’m competing I’m open minded to other disciplines. I guess that’s because I actually tried them and took knowledge where I could. I personally have no desire to compete in an industry that is clearly so high up that they look down on others in judgement because they believe differently. And not only judge, but to then perceive them as illegitimate and cruel in a sense. Those are just my personal thoughts.

I can understand where you’re coming from. Some of the things in my posts were generalizations or conversation points. Not meant to be aimed at you exactly, or in an attacking manner. I apologize if it came off that way. I have no idea about your actual character, really.

[3PB]

@beowulf

I keep seeing “happier in their own skin” thrown around in this argument for why Depo shouldn’t be banned.

Doesn’t anyone who uses depo to make horses “happier in their own skin” consider that maybe the reason the horse is “unhappy in their own skin” is because something hurts?

Being balky at the leg is a pretty classic symptom of pain.

The horse I am referring to was not in pain. I am sure that is the case with others, which is certainly worth of discussion.

[CanteringCarrot]

@mvp

I think you (along with all of us lacking pharmacological training) are missing the point: Depo does not physiologically function like Ace.

I don’t know the difference between a tranquilizer and a sedative, but I think those are different. And I think it’s equally misleading and loose to speak of anything that makes a horse quieter (heck, let’s include blood-letting, lunging to death and IV Magnesium in high doses) as a “sedative.”

Conflating everything this way opens the door to anyone explaining that, no Depo is not a sedative, do defend what they are doing with it. In geldings, eye roll.

I fully understand that Depp doesn’t physiologically function like Ace. But I’m not excluding it from being a sedative… If that makes sense? But I also don’t know if it is actually a sedative since I have no first hand experience with it.

[cedarlake]

@CanteringCarrot

I can understand where you’re coming from. Some of the things in my posts were generalizations or conversation points. Not meant to be aimed at you exactly, or in an attacking manner. I apologize if it came off that way. I have no idea about your actual character, really.

I appreciate the apology and certainly give one of my own. My back got a little to up for something as simple as an opinion! Unfortunately my mare is not the only one with a hot head😂. My apologies!

Although now after looking at your points I’ve made it a priority to research the CBD oil further. I’ve only used it twice but I’m not someone that wants to cover anything up on my horse. Drugs, bits, and short cuts aren’t my style either and I’m always looking to be a better horseman.

[mh97]

@RAyers

Wow, that is arrogantly ivory tower of you. And you may refer to me as Dr. Ayers as well. If you actually were a scientist, you could easily pull up studies that determine that MPA has no effect on the suppression of estrus in horses. I suggest looking at Dr. Patrick McCue at CSU for a recent study of 18 horses. And if you are really scientist, you would also understand how clinical research is able to pull significant results and conclusions from low numbers.

I am glad that MPA has been banned and that there is requisite clinical research that back this finding up.

I am not sure what part of my post is arrogant, but I apologize if that’s how it came off. I am aware of the CSU study. I am wondering if there are studies on the effect of depo in geldings. I have not been able to find any.

[findeight]

Think it’s a mistake to center the discussion on the few, legitimate cases where it has worked at the expense of the hundreds, if not thousands, of geldings getting up to 100 shots a year so they can jump around in a show under anything but a Pro rider better.

As posted before, my long time barn used it on late cut (6 to 8) imports who had covered mares producing not up to par offspring and acted like thugs. Never used away from home and those horses did settle in. Eventually.

[cedarlake]

@RAyers

Wow, that is arrogantly ivory tower of you. And you may refer to me as Dr. Ayers as well. If you actually were a scientist, you could easily pull up studies that determine that MPA has no effect on the suppression of estrus in horses. I suggest looking at Dr. Patrick McCue at CSU for a recent study of 18 horses. And if you are really scientist, you would also understand how clinical research is able to pull significant results and conclusions from low numbers.

I am glad that MPA has been banned and that there is requisite clinical research that back this finding up.

Do you have a link? One that average people can see? Only found something that’s on researchgate and I can’t remember my information for that site.

[Forgetmenot]

So, I my horse got depo (5cc about every 4 weeks) because he can occasionally be herd bound, and does also act "studish ". It did not sedate him, just made him more focused and ready to work.

What I’ve gathered from this thread is that i’m an evil, corner cutting rider who loves to drug my horse and only cares about winning ribbons not horsemanship.

Also rolling my eyes.

And anyone who wants to scream “more training” at me, is welcome to come watch my horse flat pretty much every movement imaginable–he is as broke as the day is long. And he is a JUMPER, for all those who assume anyone using depo is just trying to dope up their horse for the hunter ring.

[endlessclimb]

@3PB

Well since you mentioned it, actually… yes. I’ve known several horses who got depo, because they were occasionally balky at the leg and it made them more comfortable going forward and happier in their own skin.

That’s not spicing a lazy horse up. That’s trying to remove the sullen-ness from leg, when a horse is trying to tell you something. I’ve seen depo abused this way, as well.

[Ghazzu]

@mh97

Please do not put words in my mouth. As I said several times already, if depo is truly dangerous it SHOULD be banned. However, yes, I believe in having actual scientific evidence to back up a claim. Maybe it’s the years I’ve spent in academia, as someone who holds a science degree and had the importance of scholarly, peer reviewed research driven into me, that is making me question many of the claims being made in this thread and elsewhere.

So where is the “scholarly, peer reviewed research” that supports the use of medroxyprogesterone in show horses?

[mh97]

@Ghazzu

So where is the “scholarly, peer reviewed research” that supports the use of medroxyprogesterone in show horses?

I have not been able to find studies on the use on depo on geldings, which is why, if you read my posts, I said I’m split down the middle on this issue.

[mvp]

@GoneAway

Ummm…you and I are on the same side of this argument. This was in response to mh97’s post where they complained that since Depo has no science supporting it, that those of us arguing for better horsemanship might be taking it too far. “Perception is reality” is not a scientific argument, it’s just trying to explain why it is being widely used as a calming drug despite the fact that it has no factual support. It means that some hunter trainers think that Depo has that quieting effect, so they’re using it because for them that is their perceived reality, not ACTUAL reality. It is placebo. As I stated it has no scientific evidence supporting any of its use. If you read any of my other posts you’d know I do not support the use of Depo.

Right… but if that pro puts an over-horsed client on that horse, I’d argue that the placebo effect doesn’t extend so far as from the pro’s head to the client’s head. If you re-read your post, I think you’ll see the contradiction between the “perception is reality” part and “it’s useful for over-horsed clients” part. That’s all.

[Ghazzu]

@mh97

I have not been able to find studies on the use on depo on geldings, which is why, if you read my posts, I said I’m split down the middle on this issue.

Are you then saying that, in the absence of information proving that it has any beneficial effect, it should therefore be permitted, unless a significant risk exists?