Depo shots in non-cryptorchid geldings

[QUOTE=2bayboys;4707570]
But how do you determine the intent of the administration? Orangeone’s pony has ulcers and once treated, performs better in the show ring. Did she treat the pony to cure his ulcers or treat him because the ulcer med makes him jump better and have cleaner lead changes? If it’s the latter, she’s cheating. If it’s the former, she’s a responsible owner.[/QUOTE]

Is this a serious or rhetorical question? Look, the USEF rules are ostensibly about limiting cheating-- not allowing us to train through chemistry. But at bottom they’re about the animal’s welfare. Taking the time to teach an animal to do it’s job, or breeding one that is willing and able to do that ends up creating a better life experience for the horse.

So treating pain that manifests itself as poor behavior hardly violates the spirit of the USEF med rules. I don’t think the USEF wants to get into trainers’ or riders’ ways of diagnosing pain or their motives for removing it.

As to the “my gelding needs medical help for a ‘hormone imbalance’”? I think that’s a stickier situation. What counts as a hormone “imbalance” as opposed to a “within normal limits” physiology that happens to produce behavior we don’t like?

Purists, I suppose, would argue that the stallion who can’t man up and do his job in mixed company isn’t good enough. For centuries, however, we have collectively agreed to lower our standards for “a good mind” by gelding our horses. FWIW, I don’t think it’s doing the gene pool any favors to mask intractable or PITA minds in mares and geldings.

We also have perhaps unreasonable standards for behavior in the hunter ring. A gelding climbing over fences to mount mares? I can see taking action to curb that behavior. And no one ought to worry because he won’t pass his traits on to a new generation. But the horse who pins his or her ears during a lead change or swishes the tail? If that behavior requires a chemical cure, I think we are headed down the western pleasure road.

I think this is a personal decision, and not one to make santimonious judgments about. Person A might give do one thing to/for their horse that Person B disapproves of. Then Person B does something to/for their horse that Person A disapproves of. For example, Person A uses depo, but Person B lunges for a long time. Who is “right”? The point is to get the horse safe and reliable to ride and to ensure it has a secure future at its present job. Neither depo nor extended lunging are ideal solutions. I’ve had easy horses, and I’ve had difficult ones. Some are just plain nervous and spooky, and do much better with the edge off. They learn better with the edge off. It is the owner’s responsibility to become educated about what is and is not good for the horse, and to make responsible judgments and decisions. A lifetime of heavy depo? certainly not. A moderate dose during show season? Not my judgment to make at this point of my own research.

I know many educated, sensitive and loving horse owners, whose decisions about their horses’ care I almost always agree with and respect. But there are going to be times when we do not agree on horse care.

The OP is asking for information not judgments.

I have a very good friend who has ADD and she takes medication which significantly improves her quality of life (her words) as it allows her to be happy and productive. What I don’t understand is the complete rejection of similar therapies for horses or any other animals. We can only judge a horse’s happiness by its behavior and a horse’s productivity is a judgment based on our own standards and the job we have chosen for him.

I don’t think horses enjoy being spooky and on edge, but hey, what do I know what goes on in their heads? Maybe we should just train them more!

I know that our horses don’t have the choice to be given X medication or Y training program, but seriously, do they have a choice in anything we do to them or for them? I once had a crazy discussion with someone who railed against me for twitching a horse to pull its mane (took 10 minutes) while she drugged hers until its nose touched the floor so she could complete the same task. Who is right?

Some barns give depo to every gelding, regumate to every mare and they all get robaxin for bad backs.

On the face of that one could conclude that those barns don’t have good training programs if every horse needs ‘help’. And perhaps whoever is advising the clients on their purchases is doing a bad job if they all have behavior problems.

But as noted by another poster the expectations in the hunter ring point riders,trainers and owners to towards better living through chemistry.

USHJA rcently mailed out an Owners Manual. Part III contains explicit information about affecting attitude chemically.
Keep in mind that the first section of the Guide is the USHJA Code of Conduct. “the Welfare of the Horse is the first priority and must never be second to competitive, personal or commercial interests.”

But Part III says “we are looking at two general areas where medications are used: to improve clinical soundness and to affect attitude."
" the demands on horses are such that the timing of a rest that could allow a condition to resolve might be dictated by the calendar.”
“it would typically be quieting that is sought in the hunter ring”
The section then goes to on mention steroids, calcium, IV Magnesium and thiamine and their use as calming agents. The section speaks of risks and benefits .

In a striking contradiction to the material just persented it goes on to mention that The USEF rule says any medication used to impact performance is wrong.

Recently there was a rule change proposed by the USEF Veterinary committee that sought to reduce the number of permitted NSAIDS from two to one. At the same time USHJA had an active proposal that would have INCREASED the allowable number to three. After a short delay ( probbaly to give trainers time to find something that doesn’t test) only ONE NSAID will be allowed.

Sadly, I think USHJA’a position reflects the reality of the situation. Drug them up, we’ll make it legal.

Well anything we do for them is performance enhancing. So yes its a double edged sword.
On another note, if you have a horse that needs the edge taken off to mentally handle its job (showing, training, hunters, dressage, eventing, etc) and you are not allowed to do so, what becomes of that horse? Do we put it down since it doesn’t have a job? Do we expect someone to take it as a pasture pet?

[QUOTE=luvs2ridewbs;4707943]
Well anything we do for them is performance enhancing. So yes its a double edged sword.
On another note, if you have a horse that needs the edge taken off to mentally handle its job (showing, training, hunters, dressage, eventing, etc) and you are not allowed to do so, what becomes of that horse? Do we put it down since it doesn’t have a job? Do we expect someone to take it as a pasture pet?[/QUOTE]

Retrain
Find the horse a job it can handle
Show it at a smaller show circuit where ear pining isn’t the tie breaker or adjust your expectations
LTD

I think it may have something to do with the fact that we’re not proposing saddling up your friend and riding her over an eight jump course. :smiley:

Seriously? :lol: If that’s the best argument that you can come up with, you’d do well to button your lip and stay home.

The difference between an ADD person using “performance enhancing drugs” and a horse is that the person has a say in the decision.

As to the point about the fate of horses who can’t cut the mustard in the showing. Really, the USEF doesn’t care.

Or rather it does care to the extent that it will not allow us to keep horses there who mentally or physically aren’t up to the job without what they consider duct-tape solutions that are ultimately unfair to the animal.

That’s a different question from whether or not we have raised our standards for machine-like behavior that’s impossible for “horses in general” to meet. The USEF has precious little to say about that until things get really bad. Witness the rather belated effort to officially teach WP judges to look for something other than the ears below the withers.

I wasn’t refering to a show horse that doesn’t do its job well enough. I’m refering to the mentally challenged horses that get ulcers from standing in a paddock, overreact to every little thing and generally can’t handle life. If this horse was a person, they would be in therapy and probabaly on medication. The training logic doesn’t hold up to this example anymore then telling a bi polar person to train themselves out of it. If depo makes this type of horse better able to handle having a job, then I think its a good thing. (yes, these horses are few and far between.) My point was that if we aren’t going to help the ones that really need chemical help (and again, Im not talking about the horse that swishes its tail through a lead change.), what do we do with them? There are not enough pasture puff jobs to go around. And I know I would be flamed for suggesting that we put this healthy, non dangerous animal down just because it can’t hold down any job without chemical help.

Edited to add, I’ve yet to see someone set down for using depo.

[QUOTE=ESG;4711499]

Seriously? :lol: If that’s the best argument that you can come up with, you’d do well to button your lip and stay home.[/QUOTE]

luvs2ridewbs, I agree with you but perhaps you should see the above suggestion from another poster. Because, you know, if we don’t have the same opinions we should just shut up. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=ESG;4711499]
I think it may have something to do with the fact that we’re not proposing saddling up your friend and riding her over an eight jump course. :smiley:

Seriously? :lol: If that’s the best argument that you can come up with, you’d do well to button your lip and stay home.[/QUOTE]

Er, no, my friend isn’t saddled up and ridden but her job does include making life-saving decisions for people in emergency situations.

But oh well, you keep doing your thing and I’ll keep doing mine and by the way, I’ll never suggest that your opinions are not welcome here. Have a great day! :smiley:

lol If everyone just shut up, this wouldn’t be much of a forum, now would it?

After my very first lesson with my new trainer she asked if I had ever considered giving depo to my horse. At the time I thought to myself …uh… doesn’t she know he is a gelding???

And then I am came to coth to educate myself. (I also talked to my vet, which I will get to later)

Apparently two things prompted my trainer to ask this question… the first being, he is unhinged by mares in heat. Not when I’m riding him but in the barn and in the field (goes crazy running in the field, has to be kept away from them etc). The second being that he is a bit hot under saddle… in her opinion.

Personally, I think he is great under saddle for a young green ottb and its my hope that as time goes by and training progresses he will continue to get quieter and quieter (and if he never gets to hunter quiet he will just be my pleasure horse or we will try the jumpers)

Anyway, I asked my vet about it and to my surprise she said that many geldings who are show hunters are on depo. Wow, I felt like I was living under a rock when she said that. She apparently recommends 5ccs once a week.

I would like to hear experiences with depo from people who are using it on their geldings but I’m assuming most would not like admit to it on the message board… and I’m also assuming most would tell me to stay away!

Non sequitur.
“Proud cut” refers to leaving some epididymal tissue.
The adrenal glands are nowhere near the testicles. They’re up near the kidneys.
Therefore, any gelding can potentially produce small amounts of testosterone in the adrenal cortex.

Studies have been done on people that were made into unics before and after puberty. Castration before puberty the humans bodies did not change the normal way, their voices did not change, chemical changes in the glands/brain were not seen and their “drive” was low. Those castrated after puberty still grew beards, still had a “drive”, still had testosterone/changes in their brain.

I assume the same would apply to horses.

Horses grow beards?
Who knew?

I understand that this may be common practice but I do not approve of the over-chemicalizing done to the beautiful horses in this sport.

On this, we agree.
Training does not come out of a bottle.

Oh–back to what made me open the thread to begin with–geldings are, by definition, “non-cryptorchid.”
A cryptorchid horse with a retained testicle that is present is not a gelding.

[QUOTE=2bayboys;4706471]
Horsegal, your logic is twisted. Are you suggesting that the “greatest reining stallion ever” should have been gelded as a baby to prevent testicular cancer at the age of 22? That seems like the proverbial cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I adore geldings, own three of them. But it is ridiculous to suggest that we geld our colts for any reason other than our own convenience.[/QUOTE]

I think she’s suggesting that there is a medical benefit to horses that are gelded (reduced risk of certain types of cancers) and that while there may be exceptional animals whose potential contribution to the gene pool outweighs the increased risk of those cancers by not gelding, for the vast majority of male horses born, gelding is the sensible choice to make.

I.e. if there is no reason NOT to geld (exceptional horse) then gelding is the medically sensible option since we know for a fact that it reduces the risk of those types of cancers.

As it happens, we started gelding horses a long time ago for other reasons, but that doesn’t change the medical facts regarding the decreased cancer risk, or somehow invalidate them.

(Side note: This is true of spaying/neutering dogs, also, if the females are spayed before their first heat. As male dogs don’t go through heat, I’m not sure what the ideal time frame for neutering is.)

Of course, this business about gelding reducing the risks of certain types of cancer would also lead me to ask - does administering hormone treatments like depo INCREASE the risk of certain types of cancer? (Of course, since it’s an off-label use no one is likely to be doing long term studies that would track that sort of thing; likewise bone density concerns. So I personally probably wouldn’t give a gelding I owned depo unless it was basically down to depo or death because his problems were so extreme it was unsafe to work with him. But that’s my choice based on my opinion of the use of medications and the risks and benefits involved.)

My compounding pharmacy must work up my bottles differently because mine get 5cc IM every 3-4 weeks. Takes about 4-5 days to really get full effects. Typically all my showing mares and my hunter geldings get depo. Always an outcast though. I order my depo from FarmVet and I believe they have someone compound it.
And frankly I am SO over the fundamentalist, anti-drug, argument. Why don’t you stop sounding off on each posting and instead just make it your signature line? It’d save us all a lot of time and you a lot of typing.

Oh, relax and have a Robaxin and a glass of wine.
You post what you want, and others will do likewise.

I, too, find these threads perplexing. We pump a lot of stuff into our horses to make their jobs easier. Should I stop giving my horse Adequan? After all, it makes him “sounder” behind, which make his lead changes a lot better. How about the electrolytes? They definitely keep him hydrated, so he does actually perform better… I also like giving him a vetrolin bath after a hard workout. This makes him less muscle sore the next day…

So because I use certain substances to make my horse more comfortable while doing his job, which, regardless of his comfort level, he has NEVER objected to, I am breaking rules or doing something unethical? My choice to give him Adequan once a month absolutely changes his behavior, and I believe a lot of other “substances” (like liniment, poultice, etc) do as well. However, my use of these things has absolutely NOTHING to do with a “training issue”.

I simply don’t see the difference in using depo for a horse that gets stressed out during work. Stress can occur due to an environmental factor, which is often easily alterable (turnout routine, feed regiment, work schedule, etc). But it can also be due to factors totally out of the control of a rider- foreign surroundings, sleezy mares in heat, changes in weather, BREEDING, etc. No one can argue the fact that some horses are simply HOT. What’s better: giving the horse depo to keep it focused or spending an hour lunging it out of its mind before you get on? Because the latter would be the “old school” way…

None of the geldings on depo I’ve ever met are drastically different afterward. It is not a miracle cure for bad behavior or poor training. It’s not a tranquilizer, and it’s not a stimulant. Keeping a horse focused and content make it EASIER for a horse to do its job. It’s KINDER. Freaking out at a plastic bag or a barking dog are absolutely stress factors that make work less enjoyable for the horse.

So all of you thinking about how terrible it is to use depo as a therapeutic aid, I challenge you to think about the “substances” you use to make your horse more comfortable. Cosequin, hyaluronic acid, permissible doses of NSAIDS, joint injections, Legend, Adequan… Then ask yourself, honestly, whether these substances alter the behavior of your horse in some way.

DISCLAIMER: A lot of you will employ the “off-label” argument. There are TONS of things we use “off-label” for therapeutic means. Example: IChON being used in place of Adequan…

Right. Because actually training a horse might be hard.
Too bad there are so many more horse owners than horsemen these days.

Carry on.