Depo shots in non-cryptorchid geldings

[MistyBlue]

It’s always so fun when the sanctimoniousness starts around here…

It’s more fun to be able to handle and ride what you have without “enhancing” it chemically.
Either by choosing the right horse mentally and physically able to do the job ~or~ the rider being able to mentally and physically to handle/ride the horse.
Depo if for the rider, not the horse because the rider isn’t capable to handling or competing the animal without it. The horse doesn’t care at all whether or not it shows and does well.

And frankly I am SO over the fundamentalist, anti-drug, argument. Why don’t you stop sounding off on each posting and instead just make it your signature line? It’d save us all a lot of time and you a lot of typing.

Have to somewhat agree with you here. Some folks are SO over the fundamentals…of riding well and training appropriate horses.
And it does seem the drugging is definitely for saving time…time used for learning to actually handle and ride and train the horse instead of chemically altering it down to the level of whoever is in the tack.

Some of us have the opinion that the rider should choose the appropriate horse for the level of the rider and the level of the competition. (that means mentally capable horses too) If the horse is too much, then find a horse that isn’t too much for the rider and/or trainer. If the horse has the talent but not the personality for the competition…don’t drug it into the personality you want it to have.

And nope, not going to put it as a signature line. It’s an open discussion BB and there aren’t any rules that state nobody is allowed to point out when competitors are cheating and taking the chemical solution to training. Even if those publicly admitting to being sub-par at riding or training their horses or cheating in competition don’t like that.

[foursocks]

Well, it helped my horse be less studdish so he wasn’t dangerous and could live safely and contentedly in a boarding environment. And it helped my friend’s horse be less anxious so he stopped freaking out at random outside stimuli. He got 12-16 hours of turnout a day, a good ride 5-6 days a week, was in good weight, was out with his best friend (my horse), and was an anxious, anxious little guy. Depo took that anxious edge off and he was consistently able to perform the way he was trained to do- yes, trained!- without sweating and worrying when something would set him off.

These are domesticated, very highly-bred animals being asked to do difficult things for us- they are about as far from “nature” as a Standard Poodle. If a hormone shot every month allows a gelding (gelding isn’t natural! Why not train stallions to behave themselves in mixed company?) who gets nervous to not go to that place and give himself ulcers- well, what the hell is wrong with that? The horse doesn’t care that he’s getting a shot- he just feels less anxious, and is able to enjoy the job he is asked to do.

It is interesting to me how people parse out their moral superiority to be upset about X but not about Y, especially not knowing anything about the situation. If anyone were to accuse my friend of not putting in the time with this horse to work on his issues before she decided to try Depo, she’d probably hurt herself laughing. He is off Depo now- both of our horses are- but they helped to get them through a rough patch when all the training in the world couldn’t compete with whatever was going on with either of them internally.

Sheesh. It’s hormones- it’s not like anyone is sticking hot pokers up their noses, soring their legs, or feeding them moldy peanuts to save money. Neither my horse or the other one had a personality change, they just stopped fretting. It’s hormones! It wont give anyone a perfect hunter round without proper training- but it might allow the horse to relax enough to put that training to use.

[Ghazzu]

@foursocks;4943664

Why not train stallions to behave themselves in mixed company?

Mine is.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;4943527]
Right. Because actually training a horse might be hard.
Too bad there are so many more horse owners than horsemen these days.

Carry on.[/QUOTE]

Ghazzu, as a vet, I would think you would be more sensible than this. What on earth does the use of substances like adequan (which alter the behavior of a horse through altering its physical soundness) have to do with training? Or is it that you are objecting to the use of ALL substances that might somehow change the
way a horse acts? Are we to simply ignore the advancements of modern veterinary medicine and instead revert to the training and maintenance program of 1960 or 1970. I truly have never seen you clarify any of your “training issue” statements, and they confuse me.

Sorry for typos, I am typing on my cell phone (house sitting with no Internet).

[Ghazzu]

I would argue that I am the sensible one.
Improving the quality of synovial fluid is a valid therapeutic approach.

Administering progesterone to an animal for the purposes of altering its “attitude” is not.

Does it constitute abuse, probably not in any sense that would pass muster with regulations.
Is it a copout in terms of training and management? In my opinion, yes.

[S_A_McKee]

Never had one that needed it.

However, isn’t it interesting that some trainers put EVERY gelding in the barn on it. The same trainers are apt to have a bunch of horses that need robaxin for bad backs.

Often the client does as the trainer says without bothering to understand the consequences of the medication or what the medication does just because they do as they are told. I doubt many ask about side effects or have concerns about using hormones. Or even know what depo is.

And of course, everybody wants to be a winner now so shortcuts to that end are appealing.

[MistyBlue]

I might not be a vet, but I also see an enormous difference (and leap) between adequan alleviating discomfort to reduce painful reactions in the horse to using depo to alter a horse’s personality to increase the rider’s ability to compete succesfully on the horse and to mask the trainers willingness to actually spend time training the horse or else tell the client that the horse they have isn’t a mental fit for the discipline the client wants to pursue.

It’s cheating. It’s a shortcut. And frankly it’s pathetic.

Just my humble opinion. And it has nothing to do with Old School vs New (or No) School. Advances in pharma aren’t for cheating at competing. Not to mention Old School doesn’t automatically = longeing until exhausted. Maybe it was a regional thing…but dang if I ever saw that as a normal practice when I was a kid. The very few who did that (usually trying to hide while doing it) were subjects of pity around here. Felt bad that they had the wrong horse, wrong trainer and hadn’t learned to ride out the yippy-yahoos before actually showing.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I suppose I can see the difference one could draw between using adequan and using depo. Something about physic vs mental and so on. I suppose the same person would argue agains the use of regumate in mares that demonstrate extreme syptoms of heat. On those things we will simply have to agree to disagree. Of course I don’t think it’s a good practice to walk down the aisle and give every gelding in the barn depo every 4 weeks, but I do think it makes life more enjoyable for certain high strung animals that, by nature, cope worse with stress.

My point is, I believe the usef guidelines forbid the use of substances that alter the behavior of a horse. I don’t believe they stipulate mental vs. Physical alteration. For this reason, they also provide a list of forbidden substances that affect the physical soundness of a horse and the mental reactions of a horse. For the people that claim the use of a substance like depo is breaking a rule, how is it possible to differentiate between the use of either type of substance for the purposes of regulating that rule unless the substance is expressly forbidden?

I’m just not sure if it’s justified to claim this is somehow against the rules unless all behavior altering substances are against the rules. Lameness is a behavior. So is bucking, spooking, etc.

[Ghazzu]

@FrenchFrytheEqHorse;4944105

I’m just not sure if it’s justified to claim this is somehow against the rules unless all behavior altering substances are against the rules. Lameness is a behavior. So is bucking, spooking, etc.

The problem is as you say to some extent.
However, I would argue that lameness is not entirely a behavior.
It is defined as a alteration in gait either as a response to pain or as a mechanical issue (as in fibrotic myopathy).

That’s a bit different from bucking in the corners because a horse feels good.

That said, the rules try to limit the amount of pain relief that can be administered to a horse which is showing in an effort to prevent people from merely loading up the horse with sufficient analgesics to allow showing a severely lame animal.
(and yes, people do it. Ever hear about blocking feet so a horse will jog sound?)

[huntereq7]

Horse was gelded late, acted very studdish but was worth trying to solve the problem so he got depo once a month and it made a difference. He’s a dream under saddle, but was convinced he was still a stallion on the ground. Depo + a year of good ground-manner “boot camp” did wonders- he’s now the world’s biggest teddy bear

[2bayboys]

I have one horse on depo and it has improved his behavior in the barn and on the ground significantly. This is a horse who couldn’t get tacked up in the barn if the other horses were turned out, who struck out at other horses he was introduced to, who fretted in the stall so that he couldn’t gain weight and always looked somewhat anxious and reactive. 5cc of depo every three weeks or so completely eliminates those behaviors and he is obviously happier, as exhibited by his demeanor. Under saddle he is not changed much, except that he can be ridden out alone without a problem and he is less distracted by other horses being ridden nearby.

I challenge anyone who says that better training would make this horse eat better, stand quietly to be groomed and tacked, and stop his general fretting.

I don’t agree with anyone who says that I should find a more suitable horse for the job. How is that in the best interest of a horse, to get rid of him if he can’t adapt to the lifestyle I’ve chosen for him? On the contrary, by allowing him to do the job he is physically capable of performing, he is guaranteed a life of outstanding care and pampering.

[excowgirlie]

wow, this old thread really was helpful to me…my 12 year old ottb gelding, whom i have owned for four years now, and is in the best shape EVER has recently become very very herd bound, and is exhibiting dangerous behaviour towards me, now. two times this week he reared up towards me, striking at me and just being a menance! ( i ride 6 times a week, and he gets turnout, so there really is NO excuse for this!!)I am considering depo, as i plan to show, successfully, this coming season, and concentrating on my riding, our jumping, and my equitation has lately given way to me on and off and on and off, round penning, lunging, getting back on, doing anything i can to gain his respect back! you would have thought after having him for so long he would be past all this. but, he is not. and i love him dearly, so upon reviewing this post, i am calling my vet tomorrow to consult about the depo. and i called a new trainer to work with HIM as well. im pulling out all the stops, and, well…hope this works for us.

[alto]

I hope your vet refuses to prescribe steroids without pulling blood & running a comprehensive blood panel first! steroids/hormones have such a cascade effect on biochemistrty that starting with a baseline chemistry & then monitoring should be mandatory to their use.

[wanderlust]

[QUOTE=alto;5262079]
I hope your vet refuses to prescribe steroids without pulling blood & running a comprehensive blood panel first! steroids/hormones have such a cascade effect on biochemistrty that starting with a baseline chemistry & then monitoring should be mandatory to their use.[/QUOTE] Ummm, lets read for comprehension before preaching from your soapbox. They are talking about depo-provera, not depo-medrol.

[excowgirlie]

thanks wander…its soapbox saturday…lol

[Pirateer]

Illegal.

Ethics: I haz them.

[excowgirlie]

if it is illegal, i will not do it. anyway, my horse was a perfect gentleman today, so he is off the hook, for now.

[HorseShopping]

[QUOTE=mroades;4690849]
I would hazard a guess that MOST of the geldings showing in the very big circuits are being given depo. I am quite sure that almost none of them are cryptorchid.

It seems to even them out, and can decrease a spooky or pissy tendency a great deal. I love it for me, and my geldings![/QUOTE]

I know this thread is VERY old but am just wondering if this is still a prevailing thought/practice? It was suggested to me to try on a gelding that is wonderfully quiet 95% of the time but will have unpredictable moments of very naughty behavior. Because these moments are completely unpredictable, it is a bit hard to manage and/or “train it out of him.” No rhyme or reason to it.

[vxf111]

It’s still done. Whether it works for sporadic, random bad behavior is a whole 'nother ball of wax… but non crypt geldings still get depo provera for behavior modification purposes.

[imapepper]

I have had a good experience with Depo on a gelding. It’s not something that I would normally do. But once a month depo shots keeps me from looking like a battered spouse and keeps the grooms from going on a land skiing trip on a daily basis when turning lovely gelding out. Problem got very pronounced when he was turned out with a mare. I moved out of that barn and now have private turnout and hopefully we can wean off it. But I can tell when he is due for a shot because the biting gets way worse.

I do think that quality training is best but this is a older gelding that has a history of behavior issues. He has had everything possibly physical addressed. Depo helps. Wouldn’t be my first choice and wouldn’t choose it for the mildly spooky. But a serious behavior issue? Yes. I like my limbs unchewed thank you and prefer to not have to use a stud chain to lead my gelding to the ties so he doesn’t bolt and leave whenever he gets the whim to do so.