Designing a show barn. Need advice.

[Bluey]

Ideally, the way most large structures for show and other events are built, you have the arena on one side and along it an overhang with rows of stalls on both sides with an aisle in the middle, that separated by a wall from the arena.

You are stuck with the arena in the middle and stalls all around, which will make horse and human traffic harder, plus as others have mentioned, the stall part be dusty from arena use.

You know, it is your project, but if you ask, well, others will comment with their ideas, why you ask, I think?

In the end, it is your money.

Have you been to many shows for many years and seen what works well and where there are problems, in all kinds of weather?

In Canada, you have Spruce Masters, why not pick their brain and see what all they can tell you works best for what you want?

They have done a wonderful job with what they have and I am sure learned more than anyone would ever know, what worked and what not so good.

Asking them is where I would start.:yes:

[NorthwoodsRider]

@Blume Farm;7360149

If you had 30 horses 30 weekends a year at $125 for 3-day stall fee (pretending you hold a 3-day show every other weekend throughout the year) that would bring in $7,500/ month. Now you have to generate enough show entry fees to cover ALL the remainder of costs (remainder of business loan + running expenses). And that loan would really only cover the costs of what you have in your picture…NOT additional outdoor or covered arenas, additional barns, road/ parking lot contraction, RV hook up, landscaping, etc. That would cost you even more.

Even getting 30 3 days in a year is going to be very very optimistic. OP is in NE Ontario, where it is very very very cold in the winter. Our roads have been horrible in winter the last few years, so the idea that people will haul to shows in the winter is unrealistic.

OP mentioned using it as a multi-purpose facility - for that you’re going to need HEAT, which is going to be ridiculously expensive for a large building at -30degC which is regularly is in the winter in NE Ontario.

If you’ve got that much money to spend, might be more realistic to move your plan to somewhere in southern Ontario where your heating costs would be lower and your traffic would be higher and possibly year round.

[GoodTimes]

OP have you actually spoken to any of the barns in Northern Ontario? The Northeast zone Trillium shows barely break even. Foothills, Woodridge, Eastwood, and Knowlton ridge are all within an hour or two of you. They all host Trillium shows, schooling shows and clinics and thus wouldn’t need your facility for shows or clinics.
Northern Ontario would never be able to support an A show. I don’t think there’s enough of a dressage market to support a whole new facility, you haven’t mentioned a x-c course so no eventing either.

I’m sorry but I don’t think this makes sense at all, even if you do plan on hosting non-equine events.

I think the better business plan for this area would be to provide a new state-of-the-art boarding facility with a large indoor arena, and a couple large outdoor rings with good footing. If you are set on the show/clinic aspect speak with the NE zone reps and THJA to make sure you meet the requirements to host a Trillium show.

[Ambitious_Kate]

This just doesn’t look very well thought out. For example, the stall space would accomodate like 2 or 3 trainers and their horses like mine. So what does the OP think she is going to be attracting for a show? Even the little one day shows in our area have 200 competitors. I would imagine a 2 day show would need 100 stalls at the least, I don’t know what the figures are, but I do know that the design of the facility isn’t going to support the cost of this facility. Now to hear its all in northern ontario, an area where show facilities already accomodate the needs of the area?

I don’t think the OP has a business plan? No sense to any of this. for example, why is the OP worrying about tack rooms and feed rooms in a show stable, as was mentioned earilier, when competitors will be keeping their tack and feed close to their horses anyway. And, since the last thing you want is a working arena in the same building with the horses/tack/feed, AND since removing the arena from this building would instantly accomodated many more of the obvious stalls, why is she still presenting “plan” drawings of a building with a (too small) arena? I don’t think the OP has thought this out well, and hopefully she will get some professionals to help her sort this out for her, from the area.

[aqhadreamer]

OP

http://www.plpshowcentre.com/images/facilitylayout.jpg

I’d thought I would send you a link for a show centre in our area of the maritimes. It was built slowly and in parts. All 4 barns can have the stalls completely removed or moved/resized, which opens up the facility for dairy/beef shows as well as draft shows along with the regular horse shows. My only complaint is that they should have made the stalls 12X12 because at 10X10 they are almost too small for a lot of horses. (especially if you are doing a 4 day show). Parking is available on 3 sides of the facility with 2 way hook ups and 3 way hook ups in a parking lot. There is no connection between the barns and indoor but a 15" gap of open space. In the winter they open up the barns and store trailers, boats and cars in each and every space they can. The winter rentals pay a lot of money back to the facility.

I’ve worked on a fantastic farm in Ont that did ‘location’ weddings and corporate events. It sucked! Non-horse people have unrealistic expectations of a ‘barn’ and expect to not see poop/cobwebs/anything that would look bad in a picture. Our barn had custom stalls and even chandeliers. (!) Prep for these events would take weeks of work, and for the most part that was just set up, cleaning and rearranging our and the horses schedule to work with the event. For one event we rolled the indoor so that they could use it for a meeting/banquet space and it took a ton of time to get it back to good shape. We were a privet barn, and were upset with how long it took, I couldn’t imagine being a boarder and not having quality footing for several weeks.

[Blume_Farm]

Yes, I think when you start getting into multi-use facilities things get much more complicated. IMO, a facility that is going to offer wedding space must be highly landscaped, nice roads, nicer buildings than just a square metal type barn, etc.

There is a farm down the street from me that hosts many weddings and events. The host them in a converted horse barn built in the late 1800s. It does not hold any animals at all anymore but rather is just a gorgeous barn with stained glass windows, beautiful woods doors, landscaping, etc. All the animals are housed in a separate barn with pastures, lovely fencing, etc. They are essentially a back drop for the photos! By keeping the areas separate they don’t worry about flies, manure, smell, etc from the animals in their wedding/ banquet areas.

I wish the OP much luck but IMHO I think you have a lot more research to do about layout, facility use, construction costs, reasonable ability to generate enough income, etc. before even presenting a proposal to a bank for a loan.

[AKB]

I would include some oversized, 12x16’, stalls so you can host breed inspections. You will need the extra room for mares with foals. The oversized stalls will also be helpful for anyone with a very large horse. You need to try to have special touches that make a group really want to rent your facility.

[FraggleRock]

rotate the arena and stick it in a corner, you could fit way more stalls

[kalidascope]

Before you draw any plans up, you really need to do a needs analysis and run some figures. You can build whatever you like but if there is insufficient demand you will go under. Don’t build your ‘dream facility’ - build what’s needed and what will pay for itself.

Having an idea of how many shows would be held at such a facility (and you need to talk to the local Real People who would be your potential clients), how many horses, what kind of classes etc will inform your planning in terms of stall numbers and arena sizes etc.

You say “the only thing left to do is the 2d and 3d model to present to the loan agency’s…” - so does that mean you have a profit/loss statement and projected cashflow drawn up in your business plan?

Have you thought about how much capital you will need, and what amount you are going to ask the bank to loan?

Without all of the above, this is really just a dream :(.

[kizzyandana]

I do appreciate the advice that i have been given but i don’t appreciate others attacking what research i have done.

In Northern Ontario there is not a lot of English competitors- as told and seen by me when i worked at Foothills, however there are lots of western riders, tons of western competitors in the northern area. As told to me by the owner of the barn i board at who is a dressage coach. And the feed and tack are for my horses(2) who would be living there but not using a stall when their are shows. the barns would also be used if say a barn fire happens in the area they have a place to rent out to put their horses while they re build there own barn. I choose a show facility design i saw at Reach Huron my school, and i was told to have many different back up ways to get money when a show or wedding or party is not going on.

to edit; dont have a 126 ft or 127 ft by 60 ft warm up arena inside the barn, move it outside so that dust is under control and there is less traffic build up, add more parking and trailer space including a covered space for trailers during winter seasons. Have wash stalls by bathrooms for plumbing costs. Make more room for stalls

I posted this discussion to get advice and help not slapped in the face for all the hard work i put into it for three years. This might come across as rude as i put this discussion here but some of the replies i am getting are coming across as down right rude. I have no issue about flames(negative comments)i only have an issue when they are directed at me.

If anyone else has something to say about the property design do and donts positive and negative critisms are welcome.

[GoodTimes]

I don’t think anyone was attacking you, if my post came off as rude I apologize. I’m just trying to be realistic, as someone from the area I just want to make sure you do all of your homework before asking for a loan. Originally you had mentioned that there were numerous hunter/jumper barns, then said there are only 40-50 horses in the area that compete, and now you are saying there aren’t many english competitiors but there are “tons” of western competitors. I really think that you need to speak with as many barn owners, show organizers, zone reps, etc. These people will know what works and what doesn’t. As Kalidascope mentioned you will need real numbers for your business plan, not just a model of the facility.

I hope this works out for you, new facilities are always welcome! It would just be unfortunate if you put all this time and money into something that doesn’t work out.

As far as the plan for the barn I think you’ve made the right call by taking the warmup arena out. You mentioned having two large indoor arenas, I think that is enough. It’s unlikely that you would have the numbers in the winter months to warrant having two rings showing. I don’t remember seeing a storage building though? Perhaps the money you were going to put into that warmup arena would be better spent on a building that could house jumps, tractors, harrows, tables and chairs, panels for temporary stabling, etc.

[Jealoushe]

Sorry. Welcome to Coth. Your plan is unrealistic. There is no money in a show facility unless it is the quality of Spruce Meadows, KHP,etc. This is not a good business plan.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=kizzyandana;7364085]
I do appreciate the advice that i have been given but i don’t appreciate others attacking what research i have done.

In Northern Ontario there is not a lot of English competitors- as told and seen by me when i worked at Foothills, however there are lots of western riders, tons of western competitors in the northern area. As told to me by the owner of the barn i board at who is a dressage coach. And the feed and tack are for my horses(2) who would be living there but not using a stall when their are shows. the barns would also be used if say a barn fire happens in the area they have a place to rent out to put their horses while they re build there own barn. I choose a show facility design i saw at Reach Huron my school, and i was told to have many different back up ways to get money when a show or wedding or party is not going on.

to edit; dont have a 126 ft or 127 ft by 60 ft warm up arena inside the barn, move it outside so that dust is under control and there is less traffic build up, add more parking and trailer space including a covered space for trailers during winter seasons. Have wash stalls by bathrooms for plumbing costs. Make more room for stalls

I posted this discussion to get advice and help not slapped in the face for all the hard work i put into it for three years. This might come across as rude as i put this discussion here but some of the replies i am getting are coming across as down right rude. I have no issue about flames(negative comments)i only have an issue when they are directed at me.

If anyone else has something to say about the property design do and donts positive and negative critisms are welcome.[/QUOTE]

Don’t become defensive because you don’t like some advice.
You asked for opinions, some are not what you want to hear, ignore them.

Just think that you really can learn from all, what you like and what you seem to be offended by.

Whatever you build, those running it and those using it will make it work, but the idea of studying this first and picking other’s brains is to make it the best you can up front, not to have to live with things that didn’t come out right because of lack of planning and foresight.

Spend time going to watch other such facilities, talk to those running them, no sense in reinventing the wheel, let others teach you what works and not and why.

That is why you asked for opinions, is it not?:yes:

[ReSomething]

So, this is a local all-in-one facility https://sites.google.com/site/lakesidearena/facilities They have two indoor arenas bracketed by stalls, the building is divided into two halves with huge heavy sliders in between and huge heavy sliders at the ends of the aisleways. I believe the dimensions of the arenas are given on the page, the whole building is easily 200 feet across and 500 feet long.

They tried a couple of years ago to hold A shows in the winter, Dec or Jan, and I don’t know how that panned out, I note that they aren’t having one this year and some of the old user groups like the Arab group and the Alpaca people aren’t there as much. They used to be booked every weekend including the summer and now not so much.

If you visit this page https://app.box.com/s/78ong91jl7qg1sguenr4 you will note that the arena is right there sandwiched in between the banks of stalls. And rather out of scale too. I’ve been there and shown in SS Academy shows and it’s just fine for Academy, pretty convenient actually, but note the restrooms? Those are the ONLY restrooms in the building, on the ladies side there are three commodes and a dressing room and that, is a mistake. We still wind up using the stalls and that is not how I like to think of a top notch facility.

As far as personal attacks - if you go to a bank they may be nice to you, or they may not be, but if you cannot provide a bank with better numbers than “tons” they may decline to loan to you.

[Blume_Farm]

I am sorry you feel attacked, but it is hard to hear criticism of a dream. However, these are the opinions you asked for and I don’t think any really out of line.

What I would recommend is going to a bank and sitting down with a loan officer about what they will need to see as a proposal. You can make as many drawings as you like but if you cannot get the numbers, or data to work a bank will not give the loan. Especially in todays financial climate. I would also think they will need some level of collateral in either actual cash invested on your part, property, investors money, etc.

You will most likely need to show what other “like” facilities generate in show fees, stall fees, event rental fees, etc. Then show how you will charge for these things, advertise, make a projected P&L report, how you will manage payroll & taxes, etc.

I would design you facility in stages. Stage 1: all primary base facilities Stage 2: additional barns Stage 3: additional arenas 4: improved landscaping, improved barns, etc. As the amount of your loan will dictate how quickly and elaborately you can build the facility.

Again, I wish you luck but it does sound like you are just at the beginning stages and still need a lot of finer points teased out.