Deworming protocols

[Small_Change]

I would love to hear more about what people are using for deworming protocols please. I read so many conflicting (or seemingly conflicting protocols), and would really love to know what best practice is currently.

We have a small barn in Southern Ontario with good pasture and manure management. I currently do fecals on everyone with their spring vaccines and dentals, then worm according to those results. On veterinary advice (based on fecal results and the horses’ condition), I did not deworm those with negative fecals, with the intention of keeping costs down, as well avoiding unnecessary exposure to dewormer and hoping to prevent resistance. I was advised that all but one of the horses that required deworming should be fine with one dose, but the high volume shedder should have a repeat fecal and be dewormed again accordingly. This is my plan.

I then read an email blast discussing deworming protocols, in which the author is advocating that ALL horses be dewormed twice a year, regardless as to fecal results, and the high shedders be done four times annually. This seems more in line with the old practice of deworming everyone on the same schedule with rotating products multiple times a year, regardless as to worm burden? I guess I am wondering why you would bother with the fecal if everyone was going to be done anyways? It doesn’t seem to be in keeping with trying to reduce exposure.

I’d love to hear what others are doing, and what accepted best practice is now. I have spoken with my vets, who support what I am doing, but really appreciate knowing what the current thoughts are in research and practice.

[luvmyhackney]

I do a fecal 2-4/6 times a year, my low shedder who has always been a low shedder for 6 years now gets a fecal done 2x a year and wormed spring and fall to cover things that doesn’t show up.

My other two were high shedders last year and had 4 fecals done, then I wormed with whatever the vet suggested to knock out the high counts, then got a second fecal done 8 weeks after two of the wormings to make sure the wormed worked. So 6 total fecals.

Bots and a couple other worms just don’t show up on a fecal and can cause major issues so I still worm my low shedder 2x a year.

[J-Lu]

I used to deworm on a regular basis rotating wormers. Not anymore.

My current plan is to deworm twice yearly, alternating ivermectin with moxidectin. Both have praziquantel for tapes because it is so safe.

I used to do fecals regularly because this horse lived next to my other horse, “patient zero”. They had a high fecal count for a while that we got under control (same with her) with an aggressive deworming regime. Fecals were negative after that.

But fecals are just a snapshot in time. My vet and I worked out a schedule that works for my horse given the climate where he now lives and what is prevalent in this area and when. And the last line of effective wormers.
ETA: High shedders like my horses require more than one dose and sometimes multiple doses in a row depending on what the fecal egg count shows are the resident worms and what drug is best to hit them. I’d never give just one dose to get rid of parasites because parasitics target specific ages of parasites (depending on the parasitic) and it you are only hitting one age of a parasite but not the other ages of that parasite, you might as well not worm at all. And, you’re contributing to resistance.

[Hippolyta]

[https://aaep.org/guidelines/internal-parasite-control-guidelines](http://American Association of Equine Practioners Internal Parasite Control Guidelines)

I have heard some horrible advice out and about, the worst of which was from the quack a fellow boarder has for her horse.

[walkinthewalk]

I have two horses on 20+ lush acres. The joke in my area is that we keep this place cleaner than a golf course”.

My horses are considered a “closed herd”, meaning they don’t go off this property therefore not exposed to other environments.

That means I deworm spring and fall, regardless of the fact that I take fecals to the vet every spring and the counts are always low.

That is because there certainly ARE four worm types who are not reflected in the fecal count. If one thinks their horse is safe because the fecal count is low-to-no, they could really be doing an injustice to their horse(s)

Reading the first paragraph of this link covers the sum and substance for those who don’t like to read:

Four important internal parasites to consider

Information is conflicting because many of us de-worm according to our horses life styles and careers. My fellas are retired, don’t leave their 20 acres, I clean stalls and dispose of manure every day, so I am not about to “over de-worm” them when it is an known fact worms are becoming resistant to the few worm medications we have available to us.

[JB]

@Small_Change

On veterinary advice (based on fecal results and the horses’ condition), I did not deworm those with negative fecals, with the intention of keeping costs down, as well avoiding unnecessary exposure to dewormer and hoping to prevent resistance.

If they were on grass of any significance since the Fall deworming, it’s a good idea to target tapeworms Spring as well as Fall. You can do that with a double dose of pyranatel pamoate if you want to avoid another ivermectin for the low shedders.

@Small_Change

the high volume shedder should have a repeat fecal and be dewormed again accordingly.

Yes - go ahead with Equimax (or whatever the Canadian equivalent is, try really hard to avoid Eqvalan Gold (just search here for Zimecterin Gold, the exact same thing, for why), for the moderate and high shedders, then unless they are a confirmed (multiple mod/high past FECs), do another FEC in 12 weeks to see what they’re up to

@Small_Change

I then read an email blast discussing deworming protocols, in which the author is advocating that ALL horses be dewormed twice a year, regardless as to fecal results, and the high shedders be done four times annually. This seems more in line with the old practice of deworming everyone on the same schedule with rotating products multiple times a year, regardless as to worm burden? I guess I am wondering why you would bother with the fecal if everyone was going to be done anyways? It doesn’t seem to be in keeping with trying to reduce exposure.

The 2x a year is to target the things that don’t show on FECs - bots, tapeworms, neck threadworms, and pinworms (though you generally know if you have a pinworm issue)

But there’s still an if-then-else flow chart to follow. If you use, say, Equimax in Fall, and then your horses aren’t on grass and you’re cold enough there aren’t bugs, there’s no real reason to be concerned about bots or tapeworms. So, the low shedders really can get away with a Fall deworming only.

But if you’re warm enough (I think S Ontario can be?) and/or if there’s grass over the Winter, then you also ideally want a Spring deworming once temps are reliably above 45*

MOderate shedders get an additional deworming. That may only be twice a year as opposed to once, or it may be 3x instead of 2x, see above

High shedders get an additional on top of that, so 3 or 4, depending on the Winter situation.

You don’t rotate multiple products though. You use what’s effective.

Mod and High shedders give you chances to test fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate, starting with fenbendazole (most likely to be least effective) and then with pp if fen is useless.

If either of those work, you can use them for the extra 1-2 dewormings the mod/high shedders need
If neither of those work, you’re stuck with using ivermectin as the extra

[JB]

@luvmyhackney

I wormed with whatever the vet suggested to knock out the high counts, then got a second fecal done 8 weeks after two of the wormings to make sure the wormed worked

8 weeks is the wrong time for an efficacy FEC. You need to do that 10-14 days after you use the drug. That’s what all the resistance/efficacy numbers are based on, as that’s roughly how long it takes the drug to do the bulk of the killing.

8 weeks is a repeat FEC if you used fenbendazole or pyrantel pamoate, to see if you need to deworm again.
12 weeks is for ivermectin
16 weeks is for moxdiectin

@walkinthewalk

The joke in my area is that we keep this place cleaner than a golf course”.

that’s great for strongyles, but doesn’t affect the mites who carry tapeworms, or the bots. So yes, because they are 2 of the 4 that you won’t see on FECs, you still have to take them into account

Inormation is conflicting because WAY TOO MANY VETS, not to mention all the “old timers” who prefer to live by “I’ve always done it this way and it works” people, not to mention the online catalogs who still sell the year-long pack with 6 different products, are preaching the old way of doing things

Adding insult to injury are several university pages who still have old protocols up

The strategy for determining who to deworm, when, and with what, is the exact same for every single horse - this is something else people complain about because they haven’t bothered to actually take a minute and understand what that means.

The OUTCOME will vary based on the data you put in. You will deworm a moderate shedder the same number of times whether you live in ME or NC, but that 3rd deworming in ME will almost always be in the Summer where it’s cooler, and almost always in Winter in NC where it’s warmer. That’s because temperatures are a part of what you input.

[JB]

@J-Lu

I’d never give just one dose to get rid of parasites because parasitics target specific ages of parasites (depending on the parasitic) and it you are only hitting one age of a parasite but not the other ages of that parasite, you might as well not worm at all.

that’s why you do a repeat FEC. If your repeat shows eggs, that means there are adults shedding them. If there aren’t, then there aren’t adults, and just because you want to “insure” you get all the stages, doesn’t mean that’s what’s going to kill the juveniles.

Assume the drug got everything it needed to, then let a FEC prove you need to do another deworming after the appropriate time period has passed.

Otherwise, if you used ivermectin to kill adult strongyles, and you assume you need another dose before 8 weeks “just in case”, then you may very well be exposing more strongyles who still aren’t adults, and that’s what increases the risk of resistance.

[Small_Change]

All of this is very helpful, thank you everyone! I really want to do the right thing for our barn, but there is so much conflicting information out there, often from sources that seem quite reputable.

Am I to understand that I did the fecals at the wrong time (prior to deworming), and should have actually done them 10 to 12 weeks post deworming everyone with a dose of Ivermectin?

Again, thank you very, very much to everyone who has taken the time to respond. @JB, I especially appreciate how plainly you have explained things.

[IPEsq]

I know a horse personally who had a negative FEC but whose stomach was totally infested with bots (scoped thinking it was ulcers), because the owner’s vet advised generally not deworming with negative FEC.

I do once or twice a year typically if 0 FEC, depending on the horse and timing. For us, bot flies can persist into the fall sometimes, for example. And if I already dewormed in fall before seeing bot eggs, I might do a winter dose of ivermectin. Potentially raising the total to 3x. But then my horse who was dewormed in the late fall and has always had a 0 FEC (including recently checked for his Platinum colic coverage) won’t get dewormed this spring because he’s been on stall rest all winter.

[skip99]

Might be hijacking the thread a little bit, but I’m wondering what everyone is doing since Equimax seems to be hard to find? I had always done Quest Plus in the fall, Equimax in the spring, but can’t get my hands on Equimax right now* (at least online, but I’ll be calling my local stores just in case).

*Amazon does have it but $85 ish for a three pack is completely absurd

[JB]

@Small_Change

Am I to understand that I did the fecals at the wrong time (prior to deworming), and should have actually done them 10 to 12 weeks post deworming everyone with a dose of Ivermectin?

No, you did it right! Without a history, or any recent history, the best time for FECs is late Winter/early Spring, so you can see what’s what.

Even if it’s clean/low, you’re still going to deworm (because of the things you won’t see), but that FEC guides you to when you will do the next one - mid Summer? Late Summer/early Fall?

Once you have 3-4-5 FECs in late Winter/early Spring and late Summer/early Fall, then you can start skipping them if you have a consistent reading. Then you do one maybe every 18-24 months, or maybe after a weird Summer/Fall. For example, one year, having consistent low shedders, we had a really cool and wet Summer. So, I did FECs earlier than normal, and 1 horse came up at 1500 He was never that high again, and none of the others had an issue either.

things like getting older, maybe someone got sick or injured, any status change (from a young-ish, healthy horse) would warrant a check-in FEC if it’s been a few years.

@IPEsq

I know a horse personally who had a negative FEC but whose stomach was totally infested with bots (scoped thinking it was ulcers), because the owner’s vet advised generally not deworming with negative FEC.

the number of VETS who think that “FEC-based deworming” means “don’t deworm if the FEC is clean” is astonishing

@IPEsq

And if I already dewormed in fall before seeing bot eggs, I might do a winter dose of ivermectin. P

You don’t necessarily have to. Their life cycle means it’s really ok to just target them roughly every 6 months

@skip99

Might be hijacking the thread a little bit, but I’m wondering what everyone is doing since Equimax seems to be hard to find? I had always done Quest Plus in the fall, Equimax in the spring, but can’t get my hands on Equimax right now* (at least online, but I’ll be calling my local stores just in case).

Ideally, QP in Spring, Equimax in Fall. Ivermectin kills beneficial dung beetles who are most active in Spring and early Summer, but moxidectin doesn’t

So, you can use QP now, and then start looking for a reasonable deal on Equimax for the Fall.

Barring that, you can also use plain ivermectin for bots/neck threadworms/pinworms, plus a double dose of pyrantel pamoate (aka Strongid) for tapeworms (and potentially a better job with pinworms than ivermectin)

[greywithchrome]

I didn’t read all the comments, I am also in Southern Ontario. Last Fall I got a negative fecal test on my horse but not long after I decided to worm her anyways. About a week later she got scoped for ulcers and there were dead larvae on her stomach lining just waiting to fall off. It was gross haha. So now I feel like I should worm regardless.

For the last couple years I have done Ivermectin in the Spring and Quest Plus in the Fall.

[JB]

@greywithchrome

About a week later she got scoped for ulcers and there were dead larvae on her stomach lining just waiting to fall off. It was gross haha. So now I feel like I should worm regardless.

Yep, GOT to deworm for those bots!

@greywithchrome

For the last couple years I have done Ivermectin in the Spring and Quest Plus in the Fall.

if you can, reverse those, so you can help preserve beneficial dung beetles

[FjordBCRF]

I am late to the spring worming this year; I have the vet picking up a sample for fecals on Wednesday this week. I am feeling a bit antsy to administer Quest since it’s so late (spring hasn’t truly hit my area until a couple weeks ago though).

Wait until the fecal is run??

[JB]

Wait at least until the samples are picked up.

You’re not late You want to wait for temps to be reliably above 45*, and then ideally deworm well before temps are into the 80s.

[FjordBCRF]

Perfect, thank you! Yeah, the temps are finally this week MAYBE staying above 45 for the 10 day.

[Hippolyta]

@Small_Change

there is so much conflicting information out there

This is why you should follow the AAEP guidelines. Best practices based on current evidence.

[Texarkana]

@Hippolyta

@Small_Change

there is so much conflicting information out there

This is why you should follow the AAEP guidelines. Best practices based on current evidence.

And it’s so easy to follow the AAEP guidelines. 1x or 2x treatments a year for parasites not evident through FECs (like bots). Deworm your moderate or high shedders an extra 1x or 2x if necessary. There’s really not much else to worry about.

I really wish vets would either offer lower cost FECs or espouse some other method to reduce cost, like supporting training for owners to do it themselves. FECs are incredibly easy for a lay person to do. It seems like the logical route to go when many vet offices still have to charge $40 or more per FEC.

[Hippolyta]

I know someone will link it, I haven’t used any but there are mail-in services that can do counts for you. Super cheap last I heard. I think you send in the samples with a frozen water bottle in the package.