I’ve aquired an older maybe 16 to 18 yr old ottb who is probably a 2.5 body scale. I’m feeding hay. Slowly. But I’m not sure what to do with deworming. I read quest plus is not ok to give a thin horse but I’ve also read it’s the only thing you should give it. He has a wormy looking pot belly. I don’t want to kill him. I’ve done fecal counts before and not gotten any good info out of it. I’ve asked the vet and been told to half dose. I don’t really trust that after reading. I’ve confused myself trying to research. Anyone with real, solid experience with rescues who really knows their stuff, please steer me in the right direction here. TIA
FEC - non-negotiable IMHO
No, I would not remotely consider moxidectin (Quest) for a 2.5 horse, ever. There’s not enough body fat.
Never, ever ever half dose any dewormer. Ever. Not even if a vet says to, because that vet is flat out wrong. Dewormse are exactly like antibiotics in this regard - you dose by the weight of the horse, you NEVER under-dose, and you ALWAYS give it for the full duration (valid only for a Power Pack, but you get the idea).
If the horse happens to be sky high, like well over 1000 on the FEC, then I would do a dose of Safeguard, which is likely to be pretty ineffective, so only knocking down some relatively small portion of the worms. Then 2 weeks later come back with Equimax to get everything else other than any encysted strongyles. Then 12 weeks later, do another FEC and see what’s what. By that time the horse will likely be in good enough weight to use Quest (Equimax would have killed the tapeworms, so no need for Quest Plus) and then you can get into a more normal deworming routine.
I would not half dose.
What do the fecal tests show? That ought to be easy. Deciding what to do based on the fecal tests can be more difficult.
Free choice, best quality you can get hay is the way the to start. Maybe add a ration balancer (just what ought to be based upon the nutritional analysis of the hay). Maybe add some alfalfa pellets (easier to control quality and quantity than alfalfa hay). Get the teeth done so that the horse can effectively chew what you’re feeding. Get the feet done so they don’t hurt and cause the horse not to eat. Groom the horse as that encourages good coat and that’s a Good Thing in the winter.
Once the horse builds up to a healthier weight then you can think about dewormers. I know this sound counter-intuitive, but remember that dewormers cause worms that are presently embedded in the gut to die and when one lets go it can cause a minuscule bleed. Lots of worms dying at once can cause lots of minuscule bleeds. In a healthy horse this is not an issue; in a seriously malnourished one it can be.
Take your time on this.
G.
On the one I got at about a 2 on the scale, we waited about 8 weeks before worming. Malnutrition also causes bellying up, not just parasite loads and the vet wanted him in better shape before worming. We did the teeth and his feet, free choice orchard mix with about 5lbs of alfalfa split into two feelings to start gradually upped to 10, TCS starting at a half pound per feeding gradually increasing to about 3lbs per feeding. Took about 12 weeks to transition him to the normal barn feeding regime.
Its really tempting to want to stuff them full of the good stuff but you need to be patient. We did have an impaction colic at about 5 weeks that sent him to the clinic. It cleared on its own but they kept him a few days, he was so poor it really knocked him down. Clinic said it’s pretty common in low condition horses trying to recover…he was pretty sorry looking to the point we kept reassuring everybody we did not get him that way.
Anyway, by the 8 week mark, despite the colic setback, he was looking much improved and the belly trimmed up a great deal. His FECs were never much above average despite his appearance but he really bloomed after we got the worming program back on track.
So be patient.
All Helpful. Thanks. Call in to another vet. Way out of my area but good. I’ll work on the hooves, the thrush, scratches and teeth for now. He’s getting grass mix hay and a small amount of soaked beet pellets for now. He soaks everything in his water. Assuming that’s teeth.
I know a number of horses that like to dunk their hay but their teeth are fine. Some horses are just hay dunkers.
A friend with a dunker actually liked that her horse was a dunker. She figured he was less likely to colic in the winter. He kept his hay wet and kept better hydrated.
When he was in a stall with an automatic waterer they had to hang a bucket for dunking so he wouldn’t stuff the waterer with hay.
^^^^ Awe… What about vaccinations? Do I push to get them right away or wait a while on that too?
Dunking has also shown to be a symptom of ulcers.
Your vet should determine how to proceed with vaccines. They are technically only for healthy horses, but at some point soon rabies needs to be done even if everything else waits for a few weeks. Tetanus would be high on my list to get done asap too.
At this time of year, it’s probably quite ok to wait on the enceph vaccines for Spring, unless you live in the land of no Winters.
One of my vets, who is really old school, but has an excellent reputation, says that paste wormers never get rid of all the parasites. He still tube worms rescue horses, with some kind of “witches brew” of pig and sheep wormer and assorted other things. He has a high rate of success with the horse he works with. Of course, he also evaluates on a case by case basis.
I don’t think tapeworms will show up on a fecal and that’s usually what emaciated horses are full of.
Also, JB: If using a paste dewormer, would you dial the amount the (way under-weight) horse is currently weighing, or the weight he should be weighing? We’ve paste-wormed to the guess-timated current weight of our rescues, but I’ve always wondered…
We try to get teeth done and hooves trimmed ASAP. Esp. teeth, but we also want an assessment of the feet to get a handle on the overall comfort of the horse. This will help with ascertaining the type of (nearly inevitable) ulcer treatment.
I agree with getting the best quality hay possible. Not rich, but a good color and preferably with the stems on the soft side.
wait on the vaccines as well I creates an immune stress and like the dewormer use, impacts the body. On a healthy horse, think inflammation , sore muscle and perhaps low grade fever. On the debilitated horse think ???
food water teeth and start on hoof care
We waited on the vaccines, When he was at the clinic, they mainly just bagged him for hydration and administered only minimal meds, seem to recall some antibiotics on the bill but it was awhile back so details have faded.
What they currently weigh, and be liberal. Too underweight and they shouldn’t be getting moxidectin anyway, and everything else can be safely “overdosed” so you don’t remotely risk under-dosing.
I would get a vet out asap! They will have a safe program that suits the horse in question. Without vitals, it is a guess and bad advise can kill a horse with that low of a body score.
One of my rescues the vet wanted to wait 60 days to do anything but the other was castrated/vaccinated/wormed in one shot-so it depends on many things
I work with large animal law enforcement, and we rehab skinnies on a regular basis.
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Get the vet out ASAP. We like them to be waiting for us when we pull in with the trailer. We get a general health check, look at their teeth, do bloodwork, pull a fecal, make a plan for their feet and any other issues that we may find. Teeth get done at a later date, once we have fed them up a bit. Hay only, and not the good stuff. Feed small amounts frequently, like 5-6 times per day. IME skinnies get full fast, and will leave a big pile of hay sit. They are more likely to clean up a small amount more frequently, and you get more into them in the long run.
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If they are strong enough, we do their feet within the first few days. If there are major issues, they get done within 24 hours and x-rays are done as needed.
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Worming is done per the vet and FEC results. In this area we have resistant cooties (which is good when you have a loaded horse) and 99% of the time they get a Power Pack when deemed strong enough. Two weeks later, we pull another fecal, and hit them with something stronger to get the rest. Usually you see a reduction of about 50% from the Power Pack, and this way are less likely to cause major stress or an impaction colic. My personal choice after the Power Pack and second fecal is Quest Plus as long as the FEC numbers warrants it, and the horse is in good enough condition.
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Slowly introduce a complete feed after a few weeks. DO NOT overfeed grain. They did not get skinny overnight, and they need to get healthy again slowly. A horse that is a 2.5 can probably tolerate grain sooner than if he were a 1, so use your judgement there.
The good news is, a 2.5 is not THAT skinny. (Yeah, I am going to get slaughtered over that lol, and never in a zillion years thought I would say it) You are certainly not into organ damage territory unless there are other mitigating factors. You have your work cut out for you, but rehab should go fairly quickly.
I am sure you have already done a bunch of this stuff, but it is our standard protocol, and thought it was worth putting out there.
On another note, there are classes of dewormers (and antibiotics) that are NOT labelled for use in horses we equestrians have never heard of. I have a friend who has had great success (with her vet’s guidance) in her llama rescue work using these compounds off label for last ditch efforts, and now they are her go to for certain conditions.
Good luck, and thank you for taking this guy on!
Wow. Thank you everyone. Great stuff. DQ, I was thinking and hoping the same about a 2.5. He’s in bad shape, no doubt about it but it could be much much worse. Knowing some about where he came from is helpful too. I know that he was given grain (crappy, low quality grain) and hay. He lived in filth that no horse should live in and he was not cared for like the hard keeper ottb he is should be in order to thrive. It was due to heath problems, both mental heath and physical health and economic hardship, not ignorance of owners. It’s a very sad situation that has kept me up at night. I imagine every neglect case is like this. Lots of layers and not just cut and dry bad people who want animals to suffer.
Tube worming is not recommended by the big names in equine parasitology. The only reasons it was done initially was because the drugs used then were harsh and could damage the mouth and esophagus and the amounts required to be given were large.
JB is giving you great advice. I don’t know what your previous experience with fecals was that you say it was questionable, but Fecal Egg Counts are invaluable both for assessing environmental contamination by a horse and parasite resistance to drugs you use. Never ever half dose dewormers because you just help build resistance to the drug and the parasites don’t need any help with that.
As for refeeding, I would highly recommend that you read UC Davis’ Horse Report issue on Refeeding Starved Horses.
waives to Ryle so nice to see you here!
waves to JB nice to see you too! Folks have been asking about you.
