Deworming the unknown... Safely.

[RegentLion]

I got a cute little 10 year old Arab gelding in December from a tough situation. He was hay belly but ribby with his spine pretty prominent. I finally got info Today on his previous deworming schedule, which is allegedly “ivermectin in July… I think.”

He has put on weight, started work, but remains hay bellyish. He looks pregnant. He’s eating good grass hay (no alfalfa), 2lbs of a ration balancer, plus tri-amino for additional protein.

Its time to start the deworming process but how does a fecal work in the winter with poop freezing? the vet that can do fecals is an hour away and it’s going to take some coordination to get an unfrozen sample there.

Is is there a safe way to do this without a fecal? Or do I need to start the logistical process?

I know you’re curious so I would have to load my 4 kids, go to the barn (he’s boarded), bring him into the barn, hope he poops, retrieve fresh sample, drive to vet’s an hour away… Pain but I can, if I must.

[Scribbler]

If you know the horse is wormy you don’t need a fecal. Just go ahead and worm him. Maybe ask vet if it’s better to do a milder or species specific wormer and then again in a month or a broad spectrum wormer now.

The risk is if he’s really wormy and you kill all the worms at once that can cause impaction colic.

[walkinthewalk]

You need to have the vet look at him. Ditto the chances of impaction colic if he is full of worms. I know someone who lost a long weanling he had rescued because he wouldn’t take my advice to get the vet involved.

you come across as sounding very busy with four children. The horse may not have improved his lot in life, when you already knew you have so many other obligations. Rescue horses cost money to bring them back to good health------

[ClassyRide]

@walkinthewalk

You come across as sounding very busy with four children. The horse may not have improved his lot in life, when you already knew you have so many other obligations. Rescue horses cost money to bring them back to good health------

Uummm… That’s harsh. Choosing to have both a family and a horse is not a crime, nor unethical, and many people do it. We don’t know OP’s circumstances, but we do know she cares enough to post here for advice, and she knows enough that (if it wasn’t freezing right now) she’d be readily doing a fecal. So, no worries about her not getting a vet involved like the friend you mention.

OP, best of luck with your new buddy. You’re doing him a great service and I sincerely hope you and he have many, many wonderful years together. <3

[CFFarm]

Call the number on the tube and talk to a company vet. I had a feral pony that I needed to worm via feed tub and was reassured the wormer was safe something like up to almost 10 times the recommended dose. So it depends what you are using.

[RegentLion]

@walkinthewalk

You need to have the vet look at him. Ditto the chances of impaction colic if he is full of worms. I know someone who lost a long weanling he had rescued because he wouldn’t take my advice to get the vet involved.

you come across as sounding very busy with four children. The horse may not have improved his lot in life, when you already knew you have so many other obligations. Rescue horses cost money to bring them back to good health------

Yes. I am busy. But that doesn’t mean that this horse is still being neglected. I mean even if he was never ridden, he’s now getting appropriate nutrition, hoof care,
and deworming (ASAP, as appropriate). And while he was ribby he wasn’t emaciated, like other horses I’ve successfully rehabbed.

But busy doesn’t mean I don’t have the financial means to help him… Never has “money” been an issue in care. Ever. And I do make time to work with him regularly. He’s kind and smart. Hopefully in 5-10 years be a kid’s horse.

If this was summer and not 0 degrees, I could easily do the fecal. Winter is harder. Possible but harder.

[Guilherme]

I see no problem Zimectrin and Strongid. They are older meds with a good track record and would likely be what the vet would suggest anyway.

As to a sample long as it’s resonably fresh, and you tell that by visual ID, I would think it’s OK.

G.

[just_shoot_me]

www.horsemenslab.com
​​​​​​
I’ve used this place before. I ordered a kit, they sent it, I got a poop sample, mailed it and got the results in a few days. That being said, I could get to the barn on a Monday morning, wait for my guy to poop, and go to the post office.

Or you could worm him for his current weight…

[cutter99]

Pull a fecal. Target deworm as per the vet’s instructions.

Yes, you need to grab the fecal before it freezes and drop it at the vet’s office.

It is not so difficult. Many of us so it a couple times of year.

[RegentLion]

@Guilherme

I see no problem Zimectrin and Strongid. They are older meds with a good track record and would likely be what the vet would suggest anyway.

As to a sample long as it’s resonably fresh, and you tell that by visual ID, I would think it’s OK.

G.

Even if frozen? Gosh I wish it was spring!

[RegentLion]

@just shoot me

www.horsemenslab.com
​​​​​​
I’ve used this place before. I ordered a kit, they sent it, I got a poop sample, mailed it and got the results in a few days. That being said, I could get to the barn on a Monday morning, wait for my guy to poop, and go to the post office.

Or you could worm him for his current weight…

This would be easy! Thank you!!!

[JB]

@RegentLion

Its time to start the deworming process

If you take in a guy like this at some point, the best time to deworm is before he’s ever put into any pasture situation Obviously that’s water under the bridge now, but any new horse coming in should be thoroughly dewormed so that he doesn’t contribute eggs to the pasture for future contamination. Just something to think about

but how does a fecal work in the winter with poop freezing? the vet that can do fecals is an hour away and it’s going to take some coordination to get an unfrozen sample there.

Refrigerate. Use a plastic sleeve or gallon sized zip lock bag, get the sample as fresh as possible (toss off the top layer of manure and grab a handful from the middle-ish of the pile, get all the air out of the bag, label it, and put it in the fridge or cooler so that it stays under 45*. You have a few days to get it to the vet. Or you can order the kit from Dover or Smart Pack or Horseman’s Lab and mail it. Cold, and keeping air out of the bag are the big requirements.

No judging, but is there a reason the vet hasn’t been to give vaccines? Or do you know that he got appropriate vaccinations prior to getting him? I ask because a vet can use an exam sleeve and reach in to get a sample.

Is is there a safe way to do this without a fecal? Or do I need to start the logistical process?

The safe way is a dose of Safeguard/Panacur or Strongid, for a partial kill of strongyles, then in 2 weeks I’d use Equimax to finish the strongyles and get tapeworms and bots.

Alternatatively, double Strongid will kill tapeworms and some strongyles, then in 2 weeks use plain ivermectin to finish the strongyles and kill bots.

Then in 12 weeks do a FEC, followed by Quest Plus which is a better chemical for Spring deworming (won’t kill dung beetles).

So you don’t HAVE to do a FEC now. The above will just give you a baseline to start from.

[JB]

@Scribbler

If you know the horse is wormy you don’t need a fecal.

But, there are reasons other than worms for a horse to look and be unthrifty.

It can also be a great opportunity to do FECRTs to find out if either fenbendazole or pyrantel pamoate are effective. It’s less important in this situation since this horse has “his farm” parasites, not the new farm, but that’s a good reason to do FECs even if you know there’s a high worm load.

Just go ahead and worm him. Maybe ask vet if it’s better to do a milder or species specific wormer and then again in a month or a broad spectrum wormer now.

Without a FEC you don’t know species-specific

The risk is if he’s really wormy and you kill all the worms at once that can cause impaction colic.

Yep, that’s the biggest issue. Starting with something with high resistance - fenbendazole (Panacur/Safeguard) or pyrantel pamoate (Strongid) is a good way to knock down some % of any load there. Whether it’s a useful % or not is unknown without a FEC before and after, but at least single doses of either of those won’t also kill bots or tapeworms.

Then in 2 weeks, not 4, come back with something known to still be effective - ivermectin or moxidectin, with or without praziquantel, depending on whether you double dosed the Strongid the first time around

@Guilherme

I see no problem Zimectrin and Strongid. They are older meds with a good track record and would likely be what the vet would suggest anyway.

Zimecterin is ivermectin, which is still very effective against strongyles (and also kills bots). If the horse has a giant strongyle load, that could be problematic as a result

Strongid is pyrantel pamoate which, while likely to be more effective than fenbendazole, still has high and widespread resistance. This does make it a better choice for a known/suspected high load.

[RegentLion]

Hey JB!

thanks for your post!!! You always have a lot of great info.

I I ended up calling the local FEC vet who said I can go ahead and use Panacur if I want, then treat for tape worms and do a fecal in the spring. I may wait to ziploc/refrigerate first grabbing the sample next time I go to ride.

My usual routine is QP in spring after fecals, and equimax in the fall. The pony though just gets equimax twice. So really doing Panacur-Equimax and then putting him on the normal schedule should work great.

As as far as the pasture, I was under the impression we were probably safe as its been under 20 degrees since I got him with snow on the ground. Is this not the case?

He was properly vaccinated late this summer prior to me getting him. We had an EEE/WNV outbreak that scared a LOT of people that wouldn’t ordinarily vaccinate. I was in touch with his owner at that point, but it was before I got him. His former people are truly kind and I genuinely like them, but between some knowledge deficits and a really significantly difficult financial situation, they decided to get out of horses. They did what they could, and he wasn’t starving by any means, but they could no longer afford feed, so moved him before things got worse. He’d had routine hoof care (we have the same farrier), probably has been dewormed but they seem a little fuzzy on the particulars.

@JB

If you take in a guy like this at some point, the best time to deworm is before he’s ever put into any pasture situation Obviously that’s water under the bridge now, but any new horse coming in should be thoroughly dewormed so that he doesn’t contribute eggs to the pasture for future contamination. Just something to think about

Refrigerate. Use a plastic sleeve or gallon sized zip lock bag, get the sample as fresh as possible (toss off the top layer of manure and grab a handful from the middle-ish of the pile, get all the air out of the bag, label it, and put it in the fridge or cooler so that it stays under 45*. You have a few days to get it to the vet. Or you can order the kit from Dover or Smart Pack or Horseman’s Lab and mail it. Cold, and keeping air out of the bag are the big requirements.

No judging, but is there a reason the vet hasn’t been to give vaccines? Or do you know that he got appropriate vaccinations prior to getting him? I ask because a vet can use an exam sleeve and reach in to get a sample.

The safe way is a dose of Safeguard/Panacur or Strongid, for a partial kill of strongyles, then in 2 weeks I’d use Equimax to finish the strongyles and get tapeworms and bots.

Alternatatively, double Strongid will kill tapeworms and some strongyles, then in 2 weeks use plain ivermectin to finish the strongyles and kill bots.

Then in 12 weeks do a FEC, followed by Quest Plus which is a better chemical for Spring deworming (won’t kill dung beetles).

So you don’t HAVE to do a FEC now. The above will just give you a baseline to start from.

[JB]

@RegentLion

Hey JB!

thanks for your post!!! You always have a lot of great info.

You’re welcome, and thank you

I I ended up calling the local FEC vet who said I can go ahead and use Panacur if I want, then treat for tape worms and do a fecal in the spring

My only concern with this is the Panacur (fenbendazole) may be, and is likely to be, really ineffective against strongyles And it certainly won’t get bots at all. It doesn’t sound like this vet is aware of resistance issues.

In all honesty I’d want to make sure the horse gets clean, asap and safely.

My usual routine is QP in spring after fecals, and equimax in the fall. The pony though just gets equimax twice. So really doing Panacur-Equimax and then putting him on the normal schedule should work great.

:yes: :yes: Good plan

As as far as the pasture, I was under the impression we were probably safe as its been under 20 degrees since I got him with snow on the ground. Is this not the case?

His manure can still have eggs. They’ll just lay dormant until weather warms up. Cold won’t kill them. But until temps are reliably above 45*, the eggs won’t hatch into infective larva, so whether his eggs are there or not, nobody is at a risk of becoming (more) infected. He’d just be contributing to the infection potential the longer he’s pooping in the pasture.

He was properly vaccinated late this summer prior to me getting him. We had an EEE/WNV outbreak that scared a LOT of people that wouldn’t ordinarily vaccinate. I was in touch with his owner at that point, but it was before I got him. His former people are truly kind and I genuinely like them, but between some knowledge deficits and a really significantly difficult financial situation, they decided to get out of horses. They did what they could, and he wasn’t starving by any means, but they could no longer afford feed, so moved him before things got worse. He’d had routine hoof care (we have the same farrier), probably has been dewormed but they seem a little fuzzy on the particulars.

Gotcha, thanks for that!

[RegentLion]

So what would you recommend if my vet isn’t up to date? It’s not a vet I’ve used before, he’s new and local (we finally have a local horse vet!) so I thought I would try him out.

As as for the pasture… Will deworming my horses as per usual protect them from whatever he’s dropped for eggs???

@JB

You’re welcome, and thank you

My only concern with this is the Panacur (fenbendazole) may be, and is likely to be, really ineffective against strongyles And it certainly won’t get bots at all. It doesn’t sound like this vet is aware of resistance issues.

In all honesty I’d want to make sure the horse gets clean, asap and safely.

:yes: :yes: Good plan

His manure can still have eggs. They’ll just lay dormant until weather warms up. Cold won’t kill them. But until temps are reliably above 45*, the eggs won’t hatch into infective larva, so whether his eggs are there or not, nobody is at a risk of becoming (more) infected. He’d just be contributing to the infection potential the longer he’s pooping in the pasture.

Gotcha, thanks for that!

[JB]

@RegentLion

So what would you recommend if my vet isn’t up to date? It’s not a vet I’ve used before, he’s new and local (we finally have a local horse vet!) so I thought I would try him out.

What you had planned - Panacur now, 2 weeks (I assume) Equimax. Then you can get on your normal “Quest Plus in the Spring Equimax in Fall” program you normally follow

As as for the pasture… Will deworming my horses as per usual protect them from whatever he’s dropped for eggs???

Probably. If they are historically low shedders, they do a pretty good job taking care of at least reasonable parasite exposure. It’s just always a good idea to keep an eye out for all risk-lowering activities to keep a pasture as low-risk as possible.

[CFFarm]

Listen to your vet. Different parts of the country now have different worming procedures. Down here in Florida most vets are recommending Spring and fall with Quest for most horses…that’s it. If you doubt your vet, call the nearest vet school. I’m sure they will be willing to help.

[Guilherme]

@RegentLion

Even if frozen? Gosh I wish it was spring!

I would think so. The vet might have to let it thaw but I would not think that freezing would do anything that would render the analysis less reliable.

Sometimes you have to deal with reality as it is, not as we would have it be!!!

G.

[JB]

@CFFarm

Listen to your vet. Different parts of the country now have different worming procedures. Down here in Florida most vets are recommending Spring and fall with Quest for most horses…that’s it. If you doubt your vet, call the nearest vet school. I’m sure they will be willing to help.

It’s true that different areas have different timing needs. More Northern states are at such low risk of infection in the Winter (too cold, often snow cover) that there’s little to no need for Winter deworming (exceptions always exist, such as high shedders), while more Southern states have much lower risks in the Summer where heat tends to start killing eggs.

Spring and Fall deworming is all 80-90% of horses need, regardless of location though. Those are the historically low shedders due to good immune systems. Using only moxidectin though isn’t a good idea, as it will speed up resistance issues, however slowly. Even though moxidectin and ivermectin are in the same class - macrocyclic lactones - they do have a difference in that only moxidectin targets encysted strongyles. It would be good to not continually expose any lingering encysted strongyles to moxidectin. For a low shedder, they’re just not going to have any real encysted colony, so there’s no need to use only moxidectin.

Hopefully that recommendation includes at least one of those, preferably both, as Quest Plus, at a minimum. It would be better to use QP in the Spring, and Equimax in the Fall though.