Diagonal pair (legs) are not in sync

[mydogs]

I was going through some old photos I took of someone else’s horse from over a year ago. When you watched the horse trot in person, you could see something was off about it but I don’t have a trained eye to spot things in motion. I think the horse had some soundness or lameness issues at one point or it was diagnosed after, I’m not sure since I didn’t follow along closely.

I’m going through pictures to clear out some space and I was looking at his. I noticed that in the trot his diagonal pair of legs were never in sync. Meaning, his front leg was always moving a split second ahead of his hind leg. His front leg was off the ground before his back leg, and his front leg was touching the ground while his back leg was still above the footing. Or vice versa.

He also had this weird bend in his front leg that was “in the back” (so if his Right front leg is in front, his Left front leg was was in the back).

Anyways, it has always made me wonder what it could have been that caused him to move this way. Since he wasn’t my horse and I wasn’t close with the owner (just the rider), I didn’t ask any questions. Has anyone seen this before and/or know what may have been a potential cause? [ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“data-attachmentid”:10378644}[/ATTACH][ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“data-attachmentid”:10378645}[/ATTACH][ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“data-attachmentid”:10378646}[/ATTACH][ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“data-attachmentid”:10378647}[/ATTACH] ”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[ChocoMare]

It’s possible the horse is gaited, like a TWH or Paso Fino. They have a four-beat running walk.
OR a Standardbred that paces.

[eqsiu]

Could be as simple as being on the forehand. In general, the leg that hits the ground first bears the most weight. That’s why in a good collected trot the hind foot tends to hit the ground just slightly ahead of the front foot.

[Libby2563]

Diagonal pairs landing slightly out of sync is not unusual. If you want to learn more, look up “advanced diagonal placement” (DAP). Negative DAP is when the front leg lands before the hind, as you describe. Here’s one description of it: https://www.behindthebitblog.com/2008/06/diagonal-advanced-placement-in-equine.html. Hilary Clayton has done some work on the subject: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4933092/

[x-halt-salute]

Why don’t you ask the rider who you were close with about the actual diagnosis this horse received?

I don’t think I’d be very happy if I saw photos of my horse, taken by someone I don’t know well, with a presumably trusted rider up but not in a public venue (e.g. not horse show photos), posted on the internet without the sort of context and additional information that goes into an actual lameness diagnosis, in order to elicit speculation from strangers about my horse’s soundness.

I respect your curiosity and interest in learning about identifying lameness, but there are ways to do that without inviting unflattering and potentially misleading commentary about someone else’s horse. There are a lot of good resources out there to help a “layman” develop a better eye for lameness. Here’s an article for starters that might help you start to think about what you’re seeing, what a vet would be looking for in a lameness evaluation, and why internet commentary on a few photos probably won’t be able to recreate a vet’s diagnosis for this horse.

[JB]

The pictures posted show a horse who is on his forehand and not moving out. Whether there’s a physical reason for that, or just how he’s ridden can’t be determined from these pictures.

His RH isn’t landing even in his RF footprint. A horse trotting on his forehand will have the front leg of the diagonal pair land first - because he’s front-heavy.

The “broken” look to the “back” leg is also a function of all this. There is no lift, no suspension, so combined with being heavy on the forehand, the horse is “falling” off that leg as the toe breaks over, instead of lifting off over it.

[Showbizz]

Not discussing this horse, but I’ve ridden a few in my lifetime that don’t have a true trot. One is a lesson horse of ours that had competed in dressage for some years. I’m sure he was faulted for it in the quality of his gaits. I love using him, because he doesn’t have quite the “push” that some of our other lesson horses have, so he’s smoother for more inexperienced riders. But I struggle to teach riders to feel their diagonals on him.

[Scribbler]

What others have said. Diagonal advanced placement is common. If the horse is on the forehand the front feet will hit first and its not a good thing. If the hind feet hit first the horse can be very light in front. It’s one of those things we see much more clearly now with the prevalence of good cameras and videos everywhere. You can see interesting examples on photos of top dressage horses doing extended trot.

But I don’t really see significant DAP here. I just see a flat footed slow trot, below tempo and not tracking up.

The horse could be sucking back because he is sore almost anywhere in his body, plus he may have gotten sore by being worked incorrectly. He may also be a naturally short strided horse.

I don’t think there is enough here to identify an old bay in white wraps and it is a valid question if this is the first time you have ever looked at gait sequence critically.

You can find similar in any lesson factory program. Or older horse with beginner rider.

I don’t see one-sided lameness so I would think either both hocks or back pain, something that is the same on both sides.

It’s possible video from side and behind might show up an asymmetric bobble that points to one side.

[mydogs]

@eqsiu

Could be as simple as being on the forehand. In general, the leg that hits the ground first bears the most weight. That’s why in a good collected trot the hind foot tends to hit the ground just slightly ahead of the front foot.

Kind of related but not, I believe I asked a similar question either here or at my barn w/ my trainer. If a horse is cantering and their front foot (in the diagonal pair) lands before the hind foot, does that mean the horse is potentially on the forehand?

[mydogs]

@Libby2563

Diagonal pairs landing slightly out of sync is not unusual. If you want to learn more, look up “advanced diagonal placement” (DAP). Negative DAP is when the front leg lands before the hind, as you describe. Here’s one description of it: https://www.behindthebitblog.com/2008/06/diagonal-advanced-placement-in-equine.html. Hilary Clayton has done some work on the subject: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4933092/

Thanks! Even if this horse doesn’t have DAP, at least now I know it is a thing and has a name.

[Scribbler]

@mydogs

Kind of related but not, I believe I asked a similar question either here or at my barn w/ my trainer. If a horse is cantering and their front foot (in the diagonal pair) lands before the hind foot, does that mean the horse is potentially on the forehand?

It probably means the horse is doing a broken or 4 beat canter. Western Pleasure cultivates this as a “lope” but it is not correct in other disciplines. I’ve seen backyard dressage trainers get it inadvertently from trying to teach collection front to back.

It will usually disappear with more impulsion. And the horse can be on the forehand and not doing a 4 beat.

if you are interested in understanding gaits, stop looking at the front end. Look at the back end. Are the high legs tracking up so the hind hooves land in the prints of the front hooves? Do the hocks articulate cleanly or does the hind leg swing like a wooden leg? Does the horse track up straight or does one hind leg go more under the body than the other? Do the hind toes drag? Viewed from behind do the hips go up and down the same amount? Do the front and hind legs make equal V shapes at the right point in the stride?

How do these things change or stay the same going straight or in different directions on a circle?

IMHO its actually pretty easy to see a horse is off or ridden poorly once you start looking at the hind end.

But pinpointing the problem is a whole other thing, and can require extensive diagnostics to know if you have bilateral hock arthritis, stifle or SI problems, or all 3.