No. That’s huge misinformation. The rule concerning injections is none within 12h of that horse competing.
The current rules are most accessibly outlined here: https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/2Zp2C_YKs4s/2024-equine-drugs-medications
With the longer rules here and procedures concerning testing:
https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/waUkRtEVXdI/gr4-drugs-medications
I think both are true. Some people stable offsite to keep things healthier mentally for the horses. Some do it in order to do things not permitted on the show ground.
I don’t have an answer, but both can be and likely are true.
Yes, but as this thread so nicely proves (the posts insisting that horse has to be drugged) the real reason why someone is doing it will not matter, people will decide why they think people do it and say that is a fact.
Well, I would think that the trainers that have sketchy reputations have largely earned them, if this thread is any indication. So it’s less about what they do or where they stable, and more about who they are and what has been witnessed (reported or not).
If this thread is any indication, someone would be reported for having a stocked emergency med kit with a needle or for chipping because their horse spooked off a wall.
I think it should be a pretty sobering wake up call as to what the industry has become. The suspicion seems well deserved.
@endlessclimb I agree wholeheartedly. Sadly, it seems even from this thread that there’s many that want to ignore and/or give people a pass. Most of the drugs aren’t even tested with the current usef test. I had a groom who worked for me for a long time that had worked as a head groom for one of the biggest names in the business for a long time, and he told me it was every horse, every day, injection after injection. The grooms would get an “hour out” call to inject and there would be 50 60cc syringes (yes you read that correctly, 60cc) drawn up sitting there for horse after horse. He told me many times the horses would start convulsing and twitching before the shot was even all in the vein. They had a vet that constantly tested against the usef test and would have the next drug ready before the usef would ban the current drug so they always were a step ahead. He told me the horses would get tested all the time but nothing ever came of it because what they were using was untestable. It lead to him ultimately deciding he no longer would work for them or a show barn. He truly watched the horses suffer first hand. He is who truly made me open my eyes as an Ammy who owns her own farm. The person he worked for had a horse drop outside the arena which he was reportedly kicking to get up at a big show up northeast this summer. People were outraged but nothing ever happened. If we turn a blind eye and continue to support usef we are all part of the problem.
Andy Kocher has so many supporters on social media. It’s so disheartening.
That is pretty much unfathomable to me.
If you said there was a huge group who supported the idea of hanging him from the nearest tree, I would find that easier to believe.
Who on this thread wants to ignore or give people a pass?
There are bad actors in the sport and they should be held accountable. This thread is painting a broad stroke of evil and there are a whole lot more people “doing it right” , overshadowed by the bad actors. The people doing it wrong need to be punished and called out, as do the owners of said horses. Publicly and loudly.
It seems there is a lot of disagreement on what should be permitted, what shouldn’t, etc., and what is possible or isn’t. The start of this thread was is Diann too harsh basically. I think it’s honestly much more widespread than she even wants to acknowledge and what I think a lot of people refuse to acknowledge. The usef collects a lot of money every year that we’ve all paid year after year, show after show — I think they are just fine on funds to properly test and protect these poor animals. My personal feeling is the usef needs their feet held to the fire to have proper testing that includes all drugs. These should be rapid tests that they walk out the in-gate of the awards presentation and they’re waiting for them. Every special class top 3 should be tested, and every champion and reserve horse should be tested in the rated divisions.
I will disagree that there’s a lot of people doing it right, I think there’s a small percentage of those at the top AA circuit “doing it right”, but I think there’s many more that are cheating than we want to believe. Believe me, I trusted and learned the very hard way ultimately. People I was shocked would do these types of things. I had horses with nearly no liver and kidney function coming out destroyed when I thought I was doing the best for my horses. They had adequan and legend in my trunk for every week I showed, gastroguard for every day, I had my own bemer for them, I paid to have them massaged, MagnaWave, salt water spa. You name it I did it. But they were being destroyed by drugs that were given to them without my knowledge. Hemorrhaging glandular pyloric ulcers that went through treatment after treatment with no resolve which required biopsies. I could go on and on but I think it’s truly much more rampant than we all want to really consider.
I think there is a culture of normalcy in the hunters and jumpers regarding certain cheating. If you are a “name” in the industry other “names” are unwilling to speak out against such things and even support their colleagues when they know some of their practices are unethical. Interesting after the whole “position” argument on social media amongst some very big names that they feel comfortable speaking out on that topic but not on horse welfare, drugging, etc. The culture is about winning, and winning at any cost. Andy Kocher has a good business going and has support of many in the industry. So do others who have known violations. It has become NBD or part of the practice of being in the business. For example, it has become so normal and routine for people to Ace horses for any reason at any time–Windy day? Ace him. Inexperienced rider? Ace him. Young horse at first schooling show? Ace him. No one wants to take the time with horses OR riders to properly train, expose and prepare them mentally and physically for the skills they need to be happy and competent in their riding/ridden jobs. Time these days is money, or money lost. It takes years to make up a young horse correctly. Shortcuts are all the rage. We are losing the true art of correct training and we are also losing much of the longevity of an animal’s career with our shortcuts and greed. I am proud to say that after bring along a bunch of babies from scratch I never ever resorted to drugs to get them to trailer, experience new environments, ride them or show them. The only time I used drugs on my horses were for hard to clip ones or rehabbing from injury for turnout. My horses all turned out well and were solid citizens. It did take time and a lot of hands on effort.
That was me and I should have looked up record. My friend was showing in the same division and the horse was always in his division. And also on weeks he did not show. The divisions at WEC have 5 jumping classes if you did the classic.
you cannot “see” if a horse is on drugs.
FWIW, I can’t watch the video bc I don’t have an account, but there are a myriad of reasons why horses go the way they go. Not defending anything, just saying. The only definitive way to know if a horse has any medications in it is to test it
I am not a fan of German Martingales for any reason, nor am I a fan of draw reins. I havent used them in years and years, have seen too many bad things happen
60ccs of what???!
I saw it live and people gasped. The owner is fairly accurate and the horse did not move up when she asked. He was not looking around or backed off. He got there too long and literally fell into the fence. He could have stopped or chipped but had zero self preservation.
there could be a few reasons for this, not necessarily involving drugs. I am, or was, very accurate, and had one do this to me. Turns out he had spinal cord compression very low in the neck. Went to Rood and Riddle not too long after he fell with me, and had the basket surgery, but it didn’t help him
Undiagnosed EPM or EDM. Start of hind suspensory injury. Who knows?
They didn’t even know what it was they were giving as grooms. One was yellow, one was red, and one they even called the “Mountain Dew” shot because it was bright yellow-green. He knew for awhile Carolina Gold was used and when it became illegal stopped and they moved to the next shot. My guess is the Mountain Dew shot was injectable tryptophan and injectable thiamine from what I’ve learned. But the most common I have learned is ACTH and oxytocin (which I have no idea if this was in the concoction at the time he was working for them). It basically gives horses cushings like symptoms ultimately and breaks down their tendons. Here’s a recent article from the plaid horse where it’s discussed:
Preach. Both my current retiree and a gelding I recently sold are/were legitimately kicking quiet at all times… home, horse shows, just did not matter. The gelding has never had his ears stuffed at a horse show, did not need to be lunged at his first show as a 4yo… just got on at the barn and rode down to the ring on a loopy rein. He is now owned by a 62-year old woman he takes very special care of. I swear my now-retired mare rolled her eyes at other horses being stupid in warmup because she was just too cool for anyone else’s antics.
I’m sure people think they are/were drugged. We joked about how for sure the gelding was going to get tested on the regular because he liked to chill by the in gate (or really anywhere he was just standing) with his willy out.
My other mare was absolutely ruined by the use of draw reins after I bought her - I left her in FL with trainers I’d worked with for years while I was dealing with other life emergencies, and instead of teaching her to correctly hold the contact and have self-carriage, their solution to her big stride was to crank her in draw reins every ride. I got back a horse who either curled and ran, or curled and cantered in place but you could not touch her face. Two years later, I’ve finally managed to undo most of that but it has been an entirely unnecessary journey to re-teach a horse how to accept and carry contact (and herself).
A few things I am a bit confused about, as someone who makes a living going to shows, and has been tested many times…
The testers have asked if they can use Lasix to get them to pee quickly. They got their samples fast, urine, but also took blood. So what gives with what some are saying about not being able to collect a urine sample?
Every show I have ever been to in recent years has stewards watching the jumper schooling rings, and have seen some watching the hunter schooling rings. Is this unusual?
No injections at a show by other than the vets is not a good idea. If you’ve ever had a colic at a show, after hours, you need to do something to help the horse until the vet gets there. Then you file your report in the office, and withdraw from the show. It’s a safety thing, for the horses
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