Diann Langer’s abuse article

[endlessclimb]

Because of the discussion around the risks of having juniors administer IV medications?

And I’m good with having all needles banned from the show grounds. Any palliative or comfort related care I give my horses can be either 1) scheduled around the show or 2) given orally or 3) a vet can be paid to administer them at the show if it is entirely unavoidable.

For the record, my version of comfort related care to my horse is some ulcer meds and a nice long handwalk/graze. If for others it involves prescription meds to reduce inflammation (or whatever else), I’m sure if it’s important enough and legal they could figure out how to administer without needing to use a needle, or figure out how to time it for off the show grounds, or pay a vet to do it.

@CBoylen your anecdote does not = data. IV injections are just as likely to be administered to the wrong horse under a poor management regime as orally fed ones - no? The syringe doesn’t squeal “IM FOR FLUFFY” when you draw it up, unless you’ve got an invention I’m unaware of. “Relatively minor risk” has killed several horses on a very public scale. Can you list a horse who was killed with an oral feeding of magnesium, or electrolyte? As for banning all needles not working because cheaters gunna cheat - ok, what’s your solution then? If cheaters are going to cheat no matter what we do, why do anything at all, right?

[Arzny]

I guess I should have expanded. Injectable meds at the horse show.

[trubandloki]

@Arzny

I guess I should have expanded. Injectable meds at the horse show.

Sometimes the schedule for doing Adequan happens to overlap with horseshows, especially if you are doing those week long shows that are so popular now.

@endlessclimb

Because of the discussion around the risks of having juniors administer IV medications?

I guess I missed the part where we were the discussion about Juniors doing injections became juniors only doing IV injections.

[Ghazzu]

@CBoylen

Oral meds are more likely to cause an accidental drug overage

I can see a case for an accidental underdosing, but not sure how an inadvertant overdose is more likely with oral meds.

[CBoylen]

@endlessclimb

it.

@CBoylen your anecdote does not = data

But it does equal the answer to your question.

[CBoylen]

Watch someone do oral meds for 25 horses at a time and I think it becomes abundantly clear. Of course it’s possible to mix up or mess up injectable meds, but it’s not as possible.
I mean people can screw up anything. I know I’ve told the story here of the trainer stabled next to us going down his shed row and not stopping where his stalls stopped and mine started. If I hadn’t been there to see him open the stall door and tell him that one was mine it would have gotten whatever he was giving. Legal, almost certainly, but I would have been dumbfounded to have an overage or an NSAID crossover and never would have known how it happened.

[Ghazzu]

@CBoylen

Watch someone do oral meds for 25 horses at a time and I think it becomes abundantly clear. Of course it’s possible to mix up or mess up injectable meds, but it’s not as possible.
I mean people can screw up anything. I

Those people should not be administering anything to any horse via any route, then.

[endlessclimb]

particularly IV.

[endlessclimb]

@trubandloki

Sometimes the schedule for doing Adequan happens to overlap with horseshows, especially if you are doing those week long shows that are so popular now.

So give it early or late. Or pay a vet. Or don’t go to the show. There are options.

[endlessclimb]

@CBoylen

Of course it’s possible to mix up or mess up injectable meds, but it’s not as possible.

How in gods earth do you come up with this conclusion?

[CBoylen]

OK super. But the people deciding whether to give the drugs orally or inject them have watched years of real world experience and are more likely to trust that they or someone working for them can look at a line of syringes and read the number of cc to double check it versus recount 250 pills of Robaxin. You only have to read these forums for a week to see someone who is asking how badly they screwed up on misdosing their paste medication or wormer or what have you.
The question was why people, ie the trainers in charge of the barns, would use injectable vs oral meds, and these are the answers.

[endlessclimb]

@CBoylen

a line of syringes

aaaaaand we’re back to the problem.

[trubandloki]

@endlessclimb

@trubandloki

Sometimes the schedule for doing Adequan happens to overlap with horseshows, especially if you are doing those week long shows that are so popular now.

So give it early or late. Or pay a vet. Or don’t go to the show. There are options.

If you followed the discussion, the person I was responding to was saying that if you have to give your horse injectable medications you should look at how hard you are working it.
I was pointing out that Adequan was an injectable medication and giving that does not mean you are over working your horse.
Then they clarified they meant giving injections at horse shows and I was imply saying that there are times when giving Adequan happens at a horse show.

It was a conversation that you repeating your stance did not really fit in with.

[endlessclimb]

You keep trying to justify needles at horse shows using adequan as the reason. I was providing you options as to how you can still give your horse the med but not need to do it at the show, or how to do it at the show legally.

It’s not some sort of prohibitive example you’re making it. There are SEVERAL ways to get it done without needing to have a non-vet administer it on show grounds.

Sorry for repeating the point you didn’t get, back to you again. But just in case, one more time - you do not need to have needles on the show grounds. That is not normal, and not necessary.

[trubandloki]

@endlessclimb

You keep trying to justify needles at horse shows using adequan as the reason

No, I was simply saying that giving a medication by injection does not mean you are over working your horse.

Personally, I have never gone to a horse show for over a week, and I do not give my horse anything injectable at a horse show.

My other replies are simply pointing out that some answers are not a complete answer, or not complete enough - like saying have your vet do it, well most people travel to these long shows so have their vet is not an option. That was not making an excuse to give an injection, it was clarifying the point did not work.

No trainer I ever used did this crazy stuff people talk about (that I know of), and I did self care (to save money).

But then, I never expected to win either. I just went to have fun at a show.

I also do my own adequan injections at home.
I buy my banamine in a 10 dose vial and I use a needle to get it out and then give it orally (clearly, minus the needle). (I also have more banamine expire and get tossed out than I use, thankfully.)

@endlessclimb

Sorry for repeating the point you didn’t get, back to you again

Oh, I have gotten your point every time you have said it. Just because I have not agreed with how you say it, does not mean I do not understand your point.

Edit to add - I hate bad people.
I also hate regulations that make a mess of the lives of not bad people, that the bad people will just ignore and continue to find a way to be that same bad person.

[CBoylen]

You realize people are doing legal medication for many horses? An average barn, you’re taking 20 horses to the show, some it’s 50 or more. You’re on the road for three weeks out of every month, sometimes on a showgrounds for months at a time. The vets are doing maintenance vet work, prepurchases, lamenesses, etc and it’s hard enough to get an appointment for something you can’t do yourself. Logistics and human error are real world problems.

[endlessclimb]

It doesn’t have to be their home vet though. You can contact a vet, say “Hi my name is Trub, I have a prescription for Adequan and Pookie is due. I have the vials and the prescription in hand - you’re welcome to call my vet to confirm. Can you come out on Thursday and give the injection?”

Done. Or, you can just give the stuff before you leave, or when you come back. It’s honestly not that big of a deal. The people who have their horses showing 40 weeks of the year can most CERTAINLY afford to pay a vet to give injections.

We do not need to have needles at shows. For any reason.

[endlessclimb]

And this is a problem too, but not the topic of this thread. I’m sure with 50 horses there are vets that would be glad to show up for a nightly medicating round. Easy money. Good record keeping too for the trainer, in case anything happened.

Or, the owners/trainers can figure out how to give the meds orally and skip the bill.

Or, the owners/trainers can figure out why the horse needs meds so damned often and fix that, be it a larger underlying issue or management or excessive showing.

Or, if people really have that much trouble with the cost, they could consider showing just a little bit less.

Human error sounds like a handful of trainers managing 50 horses on the road for 45 weeks of the year.

[DMK]

I was and am still endlessly paranoid about powder bute (also, pointlessly, because I give 1gr 1xday when allowed so obviously not at risk of violating the rule). But when I have the 2gr1x or 1gr2x it gave me concern about how much bute the horse was actually getting. To this day I prefer bute tabs for that reason (and they end up being special order because everyone wants the pa$te or powder). Although I did give up my beloved ancient mortar and pestle, encrusted with the generations of rx before it (smzs go well with essence of bute )

My current pony cleans up, but my old hunter was a delicate, slow eater and you could occasionally come in in the AM only to find half a bucket of grain left and wonder if he was nibbling on it all night long, well past the meds cutoff.

But these concerns are why I preferred to give IV banamine back in the day. It is a certain amount of peace of mind to know that the horse got precisely x amount at y time. As a person who is considered qualified by her vet to give IV, IM and SQ shots, it’s not like that skill set and judgement suddenly abandons me when I hitch up the trailer.

[MHM]

@DMK

Although I did give up my beloved ancient mortar and pestle, encrusted with the generations of rx before it

Oh, my goodness. Thanks for the instant flashback! Lol.