Yanno, then again, it could be a perfect storm of everything came together at the right time and Horse just laid down and died. If maybe the intern had taken the horse in one hour earlier, horse wouldn’t have died or if it hadn’t been so hot that day, or…
I do distance and my horse was only galled once,when my trainer tightened the girth too tight and didn’t stretch his legs out. I ride with a sheepskin cover (which is washed every third ride) and its not an issue. 10 years of riding this horse ,over 100 miles a month during season.
I watched the DVDs from i think it was the 2007 Road to the Horse. CA, Chris Cox and Stacy Westphal. CA was back to reclaim the title after losing to Stacy the year before. Who the heck is this Chris Cox? Surely no competition for CA (in his mind). I witnessed CA bullying his horse and acting like a complete obnoxious egomaniac. He brought out a noisy chainsaw (without chain i hope) and fired it up. Had it all around the horse’s head and finally stood on the horse with the chainsaw running. (they made a new rule the next yr - no chainsaws). At one point CA had his back to his horse as he was talking to the audience. That horse flew at him, neck outstretched, gonna get him a piece of CA. CA turned around at the last second (darn it) and fended off the horse. He had bullied and bullied that horse ON CAMERA and the horse had simply had enough. I learned all i need to know about CA after watching. Chris Cox won that year. He made a comment about the chainsaw - something along the lines of the noise helping to desensitize his and Stacy’s horses. wink wink
I hate the 3 day wonder concept but if for some reason i had to do that to a horse of mine, Chris Cox would be who i would choose.
That Fairy Knob chick is now posting snippy comments on the original fb post, to anyone who dared to say that her story didn’t add up. ‘I hope karma gets you!’ Yowza. Whether you like CA and his methods or not, I think we were all scratching our heads at her.
Chris Cox is a cowboy’s trainer. He deals with a lot of ropers and rodeo types. Well, he did, the last I saw of him. I saw him take a completely obnoxious black Arab gelding who had his owner thoroughly spooked and get him turned around with some tough RIDING. The horse was soooo perplexed!! You could see a big question mark above his head. He was so gobsmacked, he settled down and acted the gentleman. I don’t know if he went home with CC for some work but I was mighty impressed with what I saw. But CC is blunt and to the point and doesn’t take guff.
[QUOTE=microbovine;6912630]
7 out of 10? What the heck? There is a reason I think most NH is crap. I see these guys selling their special, magical halters, bridles, carrot sticks, and saddles. You need to buy all that crap for their magical training to work. Really, when you think about it, their main technique is to put on a tight pair of Wranglers and appeal to as many middle aged women as possible. That’s it. They are marketing based on the classic ‘sex appeal’ scheme. Why do you think it’s so damn hard for equally talented female horse trainers to make that kind of money? Women naturally use more gentle techniques on horses and have done so for centuries. Men picked up on it, dressed up in the rugged cowboy look and made millions. Any marketing expert will tell you how to sell to a market that is dominated by women.
The only one I’d pay money to see is Buck Brannaman. I consider it a bonus that I don’t give a flying rat’s butt what he looks like.[/QUOTE]
:lol: Same thing with the dressage guys. Any blondish dude who looks good in tight breeches and can charm skeerdy-kat old ladies around a 20-meter circle (interminably) can do quite well. “Ja! Eeeet eees GUT!!” :winkgrin:
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F#/watch?v=hgDat9BePVo&feature=watch-vrec
And the horse trying to take his head off may have said it all. Lol
But in all seriousness there are a few things he has done and methods he uses I do like. I don’t agree with a lot. Such as working a horse in the ground. But most of what I use is not new by him it’s basic horsemanship that has been around way before CA and his great marketing.
This thread is about me and my horse. So let me set you straight on the facts.
I have no idea if it will help clear things up for you or if you just enjoy making rude comments about other people’s tragedies. But I would like give it a go.
My name is Natalie Vreeland.
I own and operate Fairy Knob Farm (with my husband of 37 years). We have a website. It is a breeding operation for Spanish Norman horses who are a Baroque breed orginally used by knights in jousting and warfare in the days of Chivalry.
For my Birthday, 5 years ago, my husband and best friend gave me a 2 year old Friesian gelding for my Birthday. I have been riding and working horses for 20 years as an adult and rode and competed through my growing up years.
He was beautiful, personable and smart. His name was Pharao(h) . He loved learning tricks, standing on the pedastal and bowing. Before we owned him he had been sent to a trainer to start, he was then owned by a trainer that he threw. But at two his mind was too immature. So I allowed him time to mature and gain some confidence. We started him again under saddle in his 4th and 5th year. But as accidents sometimes happen he threw my trainer. I worked with him on the ground (we had lots of fun), but when it looked like he was ready to start again under saddle, he bolted and bucked again throwing me.
I have other horses to ride and train so after I recovered from my fall I concentrated on them and had him checked out for back, leg, feet, and teeth issues. He had his teeth floated but checked out fine otherwise.
At seven he was getting on up there. We still loved him but he wasn’t really earning his keep other then looking really gorgeous in the pasture. I couldn’t risk a major fall again (head injury). My husband and I went to a Clinton Anderson’s demo and I wasn’t thrilled but I wasn’t scared of his methods. But my husband liked the step by step approach, and I was okay with it. We really are not against Clinton or his method. I like the Natural horsemen like Tom Durance, Buck Branaman, John Lyons, Monty Roberts, Pat and Clinton. I think they all have things we can learn from them. But I am not a crazy rabid fanatic about anyone. I also like the classic trainers too. Every horse is different and can use a combinations of different styles.
But for all his sweetness and willingness on the ground, Pharaoh just did not want to be a riding horse.
My thinking when we signed up for him to go to the Downunder Ranch Academy for training was that he would be at a world class facility. He would have people that knew and understood horses looking after him. That the trainees would give him daily work and attention. And he would be ridden many miles to work through his bucking and bolting habit. I knew I was not tough enough to do this for him.
To get into the academy you are interviewed by Clinton and Shana to see if you are a customer they want to deal with (see his magazine on Tree-huggers) and if the horse was trainable. Pharaoh and I passed the inspection/interview process and we were told he would be accepted in to the February class. During the interview with Clinton, he said, and I quote, “horses have died in this training” end quote. He repeated this statement a few more times (but it was almost tongue in cheek). I didn’t believe him, honestly. I thought he was tricking me into revealing that I was so sensitive and scared that I would pull my horse from training (which of course I should have done) and I didn’t believe that a multi-million dollar training operation would do anything to harm the very core of their business practice- horses and customer relations. Man o man do I regret not listening to what he said and me being the one to do the bolting.
So my darling boy went to Stephenville. We arrived, they filmed his arrival, the barn manager asked us some questions on film. she took the lead from my hand and then put him in a the cattle pen. I was holding back tears. It didn’t feel right. Then we were shown the door. My husband and friend said that it must be like parents on the first day of kindergarten are asked not to stick around. Anyhow, we were sent on our way.
It would be two weeks before we were to get our first report.
I work full time and have horses, gardens, grandkids etc so the weeks went by and the big day was here. I was to get a call from our trainer. He would be fine or sent home as incorrigable. I had my phone on my desk at work waiting for the call. The phone rang and it was Clinton. He said, " I hate to tell you this, Mate. But your horse is dead." " I am just getting off the plane in Dallas from Florida and heading to the farm." The trainer said that they had Pharaoh tied low (hobbled) and left for two hours. When she came back he was lying on the ground and was dead. There was no sign of struggle and we think it must have been a heart attack or brain aneurism." " I can call in a Veternarian from Dallas to come and do an autopsy if you want." “It will cost $250 for them to make the farm visit and could go as high as $3000.00 If the cause of death is hard to determine.” “Things like colic are easier to determine then heart attacks or aneurisms”.
“I will need your answer in the next couple hours.” I’d also like to offer you one of my signature horses, I know it is not your horse but I still want you to have it". Horses die, shit happens, I had a friend that died from a heart attack and he was like 30."
I was stunned and sitting there listening to this blast of information in total shock. I was able to croak out,“Let me get back to you,” before I was inconsolable. I called my husband and tried to talk through the tears but all I could get out is, “he’s dead” in a garbled whisper. My husband couldn’t understand me and was saying what? What’s going on? All I could do is try again through the tears and wails and try to tell him a little louder, “He’s dead!” I think my poor husband understood that I was devastated by something. And being the most awesome man in the world, he said, “Stay right where you are I am on my way.”
I must have been crying louder than I even imagined; there was a little tap on my office door and a co-worker meekly asked, “Are you okay?” I opened my door and smiled from behind the tears and apologized for upsetting her lunch. She asked, “What happened?” I couldn’t answer for the tears. She hugged me and left me balling my eye out.
Fast forward- Husband came and I told him everything I just told you about the phone call. And we both cryed and held each other. He followed me home to make sure I made it.
At home my husband and I discussed what to do. Should we pay for an autopsy? Do we trust that even if we paid for it we would get any answers (it would be a vet we didn’t know or didn’t know if it was a good vet or not) Should we go to Stephenville? If we left now it would be 5 PM when we got there. We both work full time could we get time away from work? Should we bring him home? How would we do that? It was painfully powerless feeling. We had nothing. No leg to stand on. Finally resigned to the fact that we couldn’t afford to miss work the next day, we couldn’t bring the horse home, we did not think once that Pharaoh’s death was caused on purpose. We decided to let him be buried on the Down Under Ranch with out an autopsy.
I called Clinton and told him-no autopsy, bury him for us please
and we accept your offer for a signture horse. Clinton said, “Of course we have a nice tree we will put him under.” “And of course you will take the horse it’s not like you have a choice.” “I will pick one out for you and we will send you details in a few days.”
We mourned and we cryed during the day and at night. A week passed and no word from our DUH trainer or from Clinton. I emailed the trainer and asked if they were okay? Was there any news? A day went by and I got an email that Clinton had picked out a 14.1 hand sorrel gelding for me. My heart dropped to the floor. The last thing I need is a tiny horse to feed that I won’t ride. My Friesian and all of my horses are 15.2 to 16.2 hands.
I wrote back and told her I was extremely dissapointed with a 14.1h horse. I had no use for it and I don’t want it.
The next morning I recieved a call from Clinton. He was very angry with me for not being thrilled with his choice. Clinton and I had an argument on the phone. It was a long call and a loud call. He had made the choice of the 14.1h sorrel because he was laid back and trained and just needed a tune-up to be ready. But I told him that there were a dozen 14.1 hand sorrel quarter horses on Craig’s list. I didn’t ride ponies. I wanted a horse. A horse with size and bone. I got a free training instead. (That I’ll never use.)
To be perfectly clear, Clinton refunded all our training money and cost of boarding. So gold star for that.
And that my friends was the end of my Clinton Anderson saga. Except that I was being a stupid idiot and mourning for my horse on face book. On a farm page that had 15 likes- all friends and family that love me and support me. And blamo my entries were picked up by someone on facebook and shared and the dang thing went viral.
I felt really bad that it happened and when Clinton called (again pretty mad at me and understandably so) I tried to contain the damage from my end. But it was a wildfire and out of control.
I have no beef with Clinton Anderson. I have no beef with Natural Horsemanship. I have no beef with anyone.
But I did think it was my responsibility to tell my story. Even though I like DUH, before I agreed to send my horse there I researched online and on facebook and found nothing on horses dying at the DUH academy. I thought for the sake of future horses and horse owners that (even though I do not know how Pharaoh died I assume it was natural causes) that my horse passed away while in training there and our care and treatment afterwards was not smooth or pleasant.
Please look for my story at the end of this thread. I try to clear up the facts about my horse that died at the DUH Ranch. I saw some pretty aweful things on this thread. It is a shame people have to be so cruel.
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6915518]
I watched the DVDs from i think it was the 2007 Road to the Horse. CA, Chris Cox and Stacy Westphal. CA was back to reclaim the title after losing to Stacy the year before. Who the heck is this Chris Cox? Surely no competition for CA (in his mind). I witnessed CA bullying his horse and acting like a complete obnoxious egomaniac. He brought out a noisy chainsaw (without chain i hope) and fired it up. Had it all around the horse’s head and finally stood on the horse with the chainsaw running. (they made a new rule the next yr - no chainsaws). At one point CA had his back to his horse as he was talking to the audience. That horse flew at him, neck outstretched, gonna get him a piece of CA. CA turned around at the last second (darn it) and fended off the horse. He had bullied and bullied that horse ON CAMERA and the horse had simply had enough. I learned all i need to know about CA after watching. Chris Cox won that year. He made a comment about the chainsaw - something along the lines of the noise helping to desensitize his and Stacy’s horses. wink wink
I hate the 3 day wonder concept but if for some reason i had to do that to a horse of mine, Chris Cox would be who i would choose.[/QUOTE]
Tamara in TN and I both witnessed that event. Clinton turned from the colt and walked way. The crowd gasped when that colt dove after him, teeth bared. That was CA’s ONLY clue that colt was done with him. It was one of the worst things I’ve witnessed in my horse-life, and don’t forget I grew up riding WP horses: I know horses and I know abuse. I have never seen a colt’s ears whirl in such random and frantic patterns. And there was nearly a brawl in the lady’s room afterward: Several of us were this far from crawling in that pen after that jackwagon.
He’s a tool, a bully and a tool.
Don’t nobody go nowhere. Just stepping out to get me some nachos and Margarita mix.
[QUOTE=Fairy Knob Farm;6916145]
I have no idea if it will help clear things up for you or if you just enjoy making rude comments about other people’s tragedies. But I would like give it a go.
My name is Natalie Vreeland.
I own and operate Fairy Knob Farm (with my husband of 37 years). We have a website. It is a breeding operation for Spanish Norman horses who are a Baroque breed orginally used by knights in jousting and warfare in the days of Chivalry.
For my Birthday, 5 years ago, my husband and best friend gave me a 2 year old Friesian gelding for my Birthday. I have been riding and working horses for 20 years as an adult and rode and competed through my growing up years.
He was beautiful, personable and smart. His name was Pharao(h) . He loved learning tricks, standing on the pedastal and bowing. Before we owned him he had been sent to a trainer to start, he was then owned by a trainer that he threw. But at two his mind was too immature. So I allowed him time to mature and gain some confidence. We started him again under saddle in his 4th and 5th year. But as accidents sometimes happen he threw my trainer. I worked with him on the ground (we had lots of fun), but when it looked like he was ready to start again under saddle, he bolted and bucked again throwing me.
I have other horses to ride and train so after I recovered from my fall I concentrated on them and had him checked out for back, leg, feet, and teeth issues. He had his teeth floated but checked out fine otherwise.
At seven he was getting on up there. We still loved him but he wasn’t really earning his keep other then looking really gorgeous in the pasture. I couldn’t risk a major fall again (head injury). My husband and I went to a Clinton Anderson’s demo and I wasn’t thrilled but I wasn’t scared of his methods. But my husband liked the step by step approach, and I was okay with it. We really are not against Clinton or his method. I like the Natural horsemen like Tom Durance, Buck Branaman, John Lyons, Monty Roberts, Pat and Clinton. I think they all have things we can learn from them. But I am not a crazy rabid fanatic about anyone. I also like the classic trainers too. Every horse is different and can use a combinations of different styles.
But for all his sweetness and willingness on the ground, Pharaoh just did not want to be a riding horse.
My thinking when we signed up for him to go to the Downunder Ranch Academy for training was that he would be at a world class facility. He would have people that knew and understood horses looking after him. That the trainees would give him daily work and attention. And he would be ridden many miles to work through his bucking and bolting habit. I knew I was not tough enough to do this for him.
To get into the academy you are interviewed by Clinton and Shana to see if you are a customer they want to deal with (see his magazine on Tree-huggers) and if the horse was trainable. Pharaoh and I passed the inspection/interview process and we were told he would be accepted in to the February class. During the interview with Clinton, he said, and I quote, “horses have died in this training” end quote. He repeated this statement a few more times (but it was almost tongue in cheek). I didn’t believe him, honestly. I thought he was tricking me into revealing that I was so sensitive and scared that I would pull my horse from training (which of course I should have done) and I didn’t believe that a multi-million dollar training operation would do anything to harm the very core of their business practice- horses and customer relations. Man o man do I regret not listening to what he said and me being the one to do the bolting.
So my darling boy went to Stephenville. We arrived, they filmed his arrival, the barn manager asked us some questions on film. she took the lead from my hand and then put him in a the cattle pen. I was holding back tears. It didn’t feel right. Then we were shown the door. My husband and friend said that it must be like parents on the first day of kindergarten are asked not to stick around. Anyhow, we were sent on our way.
It would be two weeks before we were to get our first report.
I work full time and have horses, gardens, grandkids etc so the weeks went by and the big day was here. I was to get a call from our trainer. He would be fine or sent home as incorrigable. I had my phone on my desk at work waiting for the call. The phone rang and it was Clinton. He said, " I hate to tell you this, Mate. But your horse is dead." " I am just getting off the plane in Dallas from Florida and heading to the farm." The trainer said that they had Pharaoh tied low (hobbled) and left for two hours. When she came back he was lying on the ground and was dead. There was no sign of struggle and we think it must have been a heart attack or brain aneurism." " I can call in a Veternarian from Dallas to come and do an autopsy if you want." “It will cost $250 for them to make the farm visit and could go as high as $3000.00 If the cause of death is hard to determine.” “Things like colic are easier to determine then heart attacks or aneurisms”.
“I will need your answer in the next couple hours.” I’d also like to offer you one of my signature horses, I know it is not your horse but I still want you to have it". Horses die, shit happens, I had a friend that died from a heart attack and he was like 30."
I was stunned and sitting there listening to this blast of information in total shock. I was able to croak out,“Let me get back to you,” before I was inconsolable. I called my husband and tried to talk through the tears but all I could get out is, “he’s dead” in a garbled whisper. My husband couldn’t understand me and was saying what? What’s going on? All I could do is try again through the tears and wails and try to tell him a little louder, “He’s dead!” I think my poor husband understood that I was devastated by something. And being the most awesome man in the world, he said, “Stay right where you are I am on my way.”
I must have been crying louder than I even imagined; there was a little tap on my office door and a co-worker meekly asked, “Are you okay?” I opened my door and smiled from behind the tears and apologized for upsetting her lunch. She asked, “What happened?” I couldn’t answer for the tears. She hugged me and left me balling my eye out.
Fast forward- Husband came and I told him everything I just told you about the phone call. And we both cryed and held each other. He followed me home to make sure I made it.
At home my husband and I discussed what to do. Should we pay for an autopsy? Do we trust that even if we paid for it we would get any answers (it would be a vet we didn’t know or didn’t know if it was a good vet or not) Should we go to Stephenville? If we left now it would be 5 PM when we got there. We both work full time could we get time away from work? Should we bring him home? How would we do that? It was painfully powerless feeling. We had nothing. No leg to stand on. Finally resigned to the fact that we couldn’t afford to miss work the next day, we couldn’t bring the horse home, we did not think once that Pharaoh’s death was caused on purpose. We decided to let him be buried on the Down Under Ranch with out an autopsy.
I called Clinton and told him-no autopsy, bury him for us please
and we accept your offer for a signture horse. Clinton said, “Of course we have a nice tree we will put him under.” “And of course you will take the horse it’s not like you have a choice.” “I will pick one out for you and we will send you details in a few days.”
We mourned and we cryed during the day and at night. A week passed and no word from our DUH trainer or from Clinton. I emailed the trainer and asked if they were okay? Was there any news? A day went by and I got an email that Clinton had picked out a 14.1 hand sorrel gelding for me. My heart dropped to the floor. The last thing I need is a tiny horse to feed that I won’t ride. My Friesian and all of my horses are 15.2 to 16.2 hands.
I wrote back and told her I was extremely dissapointed with a 14.1h horse. I had no use for it and I don’t want it.
The next morning I recieved a call from Clinton. He was very angry with me for not being thrilled with his choice. Clinton and I had an argument on the phone. It was a long call and a loud call. He had made the choice of the 14.1h sorrel because he was laid back and trained and just needed a tune-up to be ready. But I told him that there were a dozen 14.1 hand sorrel quarter horses on Craig’s list. I didn’t ride ponies. I wanted a horse. A horse with size and bone. I got a free training instead. (That I’ll never use.)
To be perfectly clear, Clinton refunded all our training money and cost of boarding. So gold star for that.
And that my friends was the end of my Clinton Anderson saga. Except that I was being a stupid idiot and mourning for my horse on face book. On a farm page that had 15 likes- all friends and family that love me and support me. And blamo my entries were picked up by someone on facebook and shared and the dang thing went viral.
I felt really bad that it happened and when Clinton called (again pretty mad at me and understandably so) I tried to contain the damage from my end. But it was a wildfire and out of control.
I have no beef with Clinton Anderson. I have no beef with Natural Horsemanship. I have no beef with anyone.
But I did think it was my responsibility to tell my story. Even though I like DUH, before I agreed to send my horse there I researched online and on facebook and found nothing on horses dying at the DUH academy. I thought for the sake of future horses and horse owners that (even though I do not know how Pharaoh died I assume it was natural causes) that my horse passed away while in training there and our care and treatment afterwards was not smooth or pleasant.[/QUOTE]
Just in case. 
[QUOTE=Mara;6916166]
Don’t nobody go nowhere. Just stepping out to get me some nachos and Margarita mix.[/QUOTE]
Maybe some of you need a life of your own ;)?
Somehow I got a double post. See above or below or wherever the sam hill it is.
Boy, this gets better’n better.
It’s a wee bit early to tipple where I live, but, I can break out the Soda Stream cola, which is very good. Buffalo Trace later this eve…
[QUOTE=Fairy Knob Farm;6916154]
Please look for my story at the end of this thread. I try to clear up the facts about my horse that died at the DUH Ranch. I saw some pretty aweful things on this thread. It is a shame people have to be so cruel.[/QUOTE]
Katarine, you missed this one. Saving.
[QUOTE=Fairy Knob Farm;6916145]
Even though I like DUH,[/QUOTE]
One of the better statements I’ve seen in many a moon. I wonder if anyone thought to check this out before putting up a shingle??
I’m sorry about your loss. I couldn’t imagine my guy being away and getting a call like that. I would have opted for a necropsy myself because I couldn’t go without knowing and it would clear up a lot of things. They are not usually that expensive that i know of so makes me wonder what is going on on that end.
[QUOTE=goneriding24;6916276]
Katarine, you missed this one. Saving.[/QUOTE]
No I didn’t.
[QUOTE=Fairy Knob Farm;6916145]
I called Clinton and told him-no autopsy, bury him for us please
and we accept your offer for a signture horse. Clinton said, “Of course we have a nice tree we will put him under.” “And of course you will take the horse it’s not like you have a choice.” “I will pick one out for you and we will send you details in a few days.”
We mourned and we cryed during the day and at night. A week passed and no word from our DUH trainer or from Clinton. I emailed the trainer and asked if they were okay? Was there any news? A day went by and I got an email that Clinton had picked out a 14.1 hand sorrel gelding for me. My heart dropped to the floor. The last thing I need is a tiny horse to feed that I won’t ride. My Friesian and all of my horses are 15.2 to 16.2 hands.
I wrote back and told her I was extremely dissapointed with a 14.1h horse. I had no use for it and I don’t want it.
The next morning I recieved a call from Clinton. He was very angry with me for not being thrilled with his choice. Clinton and I had an argument on the phone. It was a long call and a loud call. He had made the choice of the 14.1h sorrel because he was laid back and trained and just needed a tune-up to be ready. But I told him that there were a dozen 14.1 hand sorrel quarter horses on Craig’s list. I didn’t ride ponies. I wanted a horse. A horse with size and bone. I got a free training instead. (That I’ll never use.)
To be perfectly clear, Clinton refunded all our training money and cost of boarding. So gold star.[/QUOTE]
Have you signed any agreement that what you have received to date is full reparation for your agreement with CA/DUH and the matter is settled?
If so, I will only offer condolences on the loss of your horse.
If not, and you have anything on record offering you the Signature horse, You need to take it.
As it has an expressed value of $20,000 per the website, you can have CA act as agent for the sale of your horse for you and pay him a sales commission.
You then have funds to independently pursue a larger horse of the type you prefer, which if you note the type of horses on the DUH site you know they will never have.
I wish you success in your future business interactions with horse trainers: there are several very professional Friesian people on this board who could probably recommend some solid people to you.
