I have popcorn, wine and nothing to do tonight. 
Okay, the houseguest might be a little too enthusiastic, but, still, CA himself, in his contract or paper says seven out of ten horses gall (which is mind-boggling in my book, trying to wrap my head around that). He does say they may die. He says they may lose weight. The way I see it, how he says it, it is so broad you canāt pin it down.
By the by, does John Lyons or Chris Cox or any of the others have similar wording?? If anyone knows off the top of their head?
Yanno, Iām not firmly in the NH camp nor the classical english camp but the more I read and hear of things in this NH cr*p, the less I think of it. Something is out of whack, and itās not the Fresian ownersā¦
7 out of 10? What the heck? There is a reason I think most NH is crap. I see these guys selling their special, magical halters, bridles, carrot sticks, and saddles. You need to buy all that crap for their magical training to work. Really, when you think about it, their main technique is to put on a tight pair of Wranglers and appeal to as many middle aged women as possible. Thatās it. They are marketing based on the classic āsex appealā scheme. Why do you think itās so damn hard for equally talented female horse trainers to make that kind of money? Women naturally use more gentle techniques on horses and have done so for centuries. Men picked up on it, dressed up in the rugged cowboy look and made millions. Any marketing expert will tell you how to sell to a market that is dominated by women.
The only one Iād pay money to see is Buck Brannaman. I consider it a bonus that I donāt give a flying ratās butt what he looks like.
[QUOTE=rabicon;6910942]
I donāt think we can say he does one method for all horses. We just donāt know, unless someone on here has sent their horse to him that was not a qh or paint. The death of this horse could completely be no ones fault at all. Iāve known 2 horses in the past few years that were under the age of 8 fall over dead from a āheart attackā standing In the pasture not even been ridden in weeks. It happens and without a necropsy itās all speculation and i donāt think itās fair to either party
to speculate what happen. CA has worked with other breeds, heck he even worked with I believe it was Stephen bradleyās event horse before. Does he train his students on different breeds? Idk but itād be interesting to know facts.[/QUOTE]
His whole marketing plan is based on āThe Methodā.
If you work with enough horses, long enough, (Iām talking decades, not weeks) odds are a couple will die when in your control. I just find the offer to replace the horse right off the bat odd (if true). To me this shows that heās lost a lot of respect and compassion for horses as individuals and is has donned blinkers just like most of the half hour wonders. JMHO
From the sounds of it, this particular horse had only been there two weeks so probably wasnāt being worked THAT hard yet.
Also, as has been said previously, this horse was not being worked at the time it died. There was no struggle. It basically lied down and died. This is highly indicative of aortic rupture which seems to be a fairly common cause of death in the Friesian breed. Lots of horses of other breeds die this way as well. Hickstead anyone? In any case, the death of this horse is a āno faultā situation. And Clinton Anderson my be a egomaniac, but I highly doubt heās a sadistic horse abuser.
[QUOTE=CFFarm;6912649]
If you work with enough horses, long enough, (Iām talking decades, not weeks) odds are a couple will die when in your control.[/QUOTE]
Yup. But over the decades, less than on one hand, not a blanket statement, āhorses dieā and the gall one. IDK, just odd.
I had a horse die in training years ago, and the trainer paid for the autopsy himselfālikely to cover his a$$ if not for the kindness of the gesture. Also paid for the burial and refunded my entire fee (even though it was not his fault the horse died). I didnāt cause a stink, and we remain friends to this day. Sounds like this situation could have been handled better on all fronts, by all parties involved.
[QUOTE=manyponies;6912297]
He has no compassion for animals OR people at allā¦ canāt you tell that from the letter he wrote? Anyone who has the attitude that āHey, shit happens, horses die, get over itāā¦shouldnāt be able to train horses at all, in my opinionā¦ [/QUOTE]
From seeing CA in person many times and listening to him talk about animals, this is my takeaway impression as well. I donāt like his horsemanship methodsā¦but I REALLY donāt like the way he talks to and about animals when heās working them. He has little respect for them. When he lost Road to the Horse a couple of years ago, he blamed the horseā¦the horse who worked his heart (and lungs) out for CA for hours so he could have a temper tantrum when he lost. Sorry to digress, but this guy has no business with horses, imo.
[QUOTE=valkyrie36;6913262]
I had a horse die in training years ago, and the trainer paid for the autopsy himselfālikely to cover his a$$ if not for the kindness of the gesture. Also paid for the burial and refunded my entire fee (even though it was not his fault the horse died). I didnāt cause a stink, and we remain friends to this day. Sounds like this situation could have been handled better on all fronts, by all parties involved.[/QUOTE]
This would have been the professional way to handle it.
Blaming the horse is poor horsemanship as well as poor sportsmanship. And I agree with your assessment of his lack of empathy or knowing when enough is too much.
[QUOTE=jdeboer01;6912798]From the sounds of it, this particular horse had only been there two weeks so probably wasnāt being worked THAT hard yet.
Also, as has been said previously, this horse was not being worked at the time it died. There was no struggle. It basically lied down and died. This is highly indicative of aortic rupture which seems to be a fairly common cause of death in the Friesian breed. Lots of horses of other breeds die this way as well. Hickstead anyone? In any case, the death of this horse is a āno faultā situation. And Clinton Anderson my be a egomaniac, but I highly doubt heās a sadistic horse abuser.[/QUOTE]
He has a foal training program for those who breed: would you feel confident if your buyers used him?
If a breed is predisposed to any physical weakness shouldnāt a horseman be particularly vigilant about monitoring such a horse?
And I disagree, two weeks is plenty of time to overwork a horse in a program where flooding to learned helplessness and exhaustion, extreme stress, and withholding water are accepted procedures in a ātrainingā regime; especially a hairy black horse in a hot, sunny climate. Heat exhaustion is real in cattle, let alone horses in hard work who are not monitored.
Galls are from poor fitting equipment or ill made, uncovered buckles and cinch rings on soft horses, not taking the time to wash salt off of girths or horses between works - they are simply bad horsemanship.
And āhours in the saddleā is no excuse. Endurance horses are inpected at rides for galls and back soreness; any horse treated so that 3/4 are sored are being abused.
Refusing owners observation of training sessions means only that your methods will not stand the scrutiny of other horsemen.
A trainer ought to pass the āno blood testā in my opinion.
The vast majority of Friesian owners have no idea of any of the breedās weaknesses. The powers that be in the registry want it that way. Besides, the truth is that most Friesianās health is just fine. The breed is susceptible to some genetically inherited problems in the same way some dog breeds are susceptible to some genetic problems.
Because so many Friesian owners are not highly experienced horse people, MANY are drawn to the NH āgurusā. I donāt have any evidence, but Iād be willing to bet a decent chunk of change that CA has worked with quite a few Friesians before. Lol.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6913572]And I disagree, two weeks is plenty of time to overwork a horse in a program where flooding to learned helplessness and exhaustion, extreme stress, and withholding water are accepted procedures in a ātrainingā regime; especially a hairy black horse in a hot, sunny climate. Heat exhaustion is real in cattle, let alone horses in hard work who are not monitored.
[/quote]
Look, Iām not defending CA, but if ^^^this was the norm and was going on all the time, heād be in jail by now. Thereās no way someone could treat horses like that regularly for the past 15 years or more (or however long heās been around) and not have had his pants sued off, or have been caught and prosecuted. Especially in this world of cell phone video cameras.
I canāt help but think that if they were really such delicate flowers the Charros would be killing them off left and right. They go up and down my street doing stuff like this whether itās 50F or 105F.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bccKkyVwC_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVwcLjqx7wQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIJ_R903Vf4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D9n3b-oeIQ
Not saying they handle the heat well - they donāt look all that good after theyāve been made to ādanceā 5 min straight in full summer - but they arenāt keeling over dead in great numbers either.
I canāt imagine that round-penning one in March weather would be enough to kill the horse without some underlying issues over and above the usual Friesians-are-hothouse-flowers.
I really wish the horse owner had been willing to do the necropsy so weād actually know what happened.
Welp, the difference about the weather might be that Stephenville, besides being hotter than blue blazes at times, is in a humid area. My familyās ranch isnāt too far from there and I can say, at times, you feel like youāre inhaling water. If you wash your hair, without a blow dryer, youāre hair wonāt dry and would prolly mold!!
Yeah, maybe Freisians are a bit on the delicate side, but isnāt this the breed who carried knights into battle?? Or is that an old wives tale??
[QUOTE=goneriding24;6914300]
Welp, the difference about the weather might be that Stephenville, besides being hotter than blue blazes at times, is in a humid area. My familyās ranch isnāt too far from there and I can say, at times, you feel like youāre inhaling water. If you wash your hair, without a blow dryer, youāre hair wonāt dry and would prolly mold!!
Yeah, maybe Freisians are a bit on the delicate side, but isnāt this the breed who carried knights into battle?? Or is that an old wives tale??[/QUOTE]
Itās an old wives tale.
They used Brabants, Shires, and such.
ETA itās more like a New Hollywood Myth, because they just look so pretty, all fluffed up.
If they ever did carry knights into battle, it was long before their gene pool became the size of your Momās soup tureen.
posted the same time as alagirl. Yeah, what she said.
[QUOTE=jdeboer01;6914159]
The vast majority of Friesian owners have no idea of any of the breedās weaknesses. The powers that be in the registry want it that way. Besides, the truth is that most Friesianās health is just fine. The breed is susceptible to some genetically inherited problems in the same way some dog breeds are susceptible to some genetic problems.
Because so many Friesian owners are not highly experienced horse people, MANY are drawn to the NH āgurusā. I donāt have any evidence, but Iād be willing to bet a decent chunk of change that CA has worked with quite a few Friesians before. Lol.
Look, Iām not defending CA, but if ^^^this was the norm and was going on all the time, heād be in jail by now. Thereās no way someone could treat horses like that regularly for the past 15 years or more (or however long heās been around) and not have had his pants sued off, or have been caught and prosecuted. Especially in this world of cell phone video cameras.[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of horse owners who believe in the hard knock school of horse training. And it is amazing how non-horse people seem to believe whatever they are told by someone they identify as an expert; whether that person is damaging to the horse or at the other end of the spectrum totally spoiling the animal.
A person putting themselves out as an international expert and trainer of trainers ought to be held to a far higher standard of knowledge about varous breeds; and if the training is rigorous, conditioning should be done using Temp Pulse Respiration monitoring at mniimum, using an original workup as a baseline.
Human physical trainers of humans suggest pre training physicals and monitor dangerous situations on an individual basis. But they also find out what went wrong when a death or critical result occurs.
Hiding from the public because they might think your methods are ātoo harsh appearing and they wonāt understandā or you are ātoo busyā to be watched - not interrupted, just watched?
Not a place I would send one of my horses.
Those charro videos made me sick.
How do we know heās not? He could be well aware of the exercise intolerance many Friesians have. If anything, they may submit faster than other breeds because theyāre tired after 2 mins of running around. Which would make them easier to train. Lol.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6914770]Hiding from the public because they might think your methods are ātoo harsh appearing and they wonāt understandā or you are ātoo busyā to be watched - not interrupted, just watched?
Not a place I would send one of my horses.[/QUOTE]
Me neither, but I kind of see where heās coming from as far as people hovering around and slowing down the process. Donāt forget ā the fa$ter his ranch can turn a hor$e around the fa$ter he can get another one in. 
That being said, IMHO he really should permit owners to observe the training process at least four times during their stay at the ranch. But he doesnāt and thatās why I would NEVER send a horse to him. I doubt heās any harsher on the horses than any other NH guru out there. I just think heās an ass. Lol.
Not to nitpick, but the 2nd quote with my name (above), isnāt mine. I agree with it 100%, but I didnāt say it ;).
[QUOTE=hundredacres;6915082]
Not to nitpick, but the 2nd quote with my name (above), isnāt mine. I agree with it 100%, but I didnāt say it ;).[/QUOTE]
Fixed! Sorry about that!!
