Did a horse die at Clinton Anderson's ranch?

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=valkyrie36;6917942]
What troubles me the most about this situation is that CA should have requested and paid for the necropsy himself, just to avoid this very thing from evolving like it has. The fact that he didn’t, and also gave the owner information that hints at discouragement for her seeking a necropsy is very telling. If he was 100% certain that it had nothing to do with the training or care, then I can’t imagine why he wouldn’t want proof of that!

And offering her the horse, when he had no legal obligation to do so (if it wasn’t the fault of anything/one at his ranch), adds to my suspicion.[/QUOTE]

who is to say he didn’t offer?

[Alagirl]

@goneriding24;6917852

Okay, was this a stud horse or gelding? And, inquiring minds, is a Spanish Norman horse a Friesian? Or is that the breed she raises on the side?

ETA: Sorry, I couldn’t get through the vid. The one thing which struck me, the bending to the outside and then ‘scurrying’ the other way. Even working gates and ranch work, that’s impractical. I’m not sure what it’s for and why bending so far. ?? But he’s the rich one, I’m not… :eek:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;6917435] Spanish Norman Horse

Just saying…:lol:

I don’t quote myself often

[CFFarm]

It took me 13 pages of reading to realize DUH ranch was Down Under Horsemanship and not DUH, as in Homer Simpson. Duh…

I too am sorry for the lady’s loss (we’ve all been there at sometime) but I agree that Fairy Knob should have taken the offered horse and sold it. I mean, it is a CA Signature horse. Some fan would have paid big money, I’m sure.

[Snowflake]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;6917955]

Offering up prices (that we do not know if they are right or wrong) is some how discouraging her? If he did not want her to do a necropsy at all I am guessing he would not have brought the subject up.

On the subject of the price, I am guessing, like so many things in life, he gave her the extreme high so there would not be any ‘you said it was only going to be $300 and now they are billing me $3000 because I ordered every test in the book, you were not honest’ in the end.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I don’t feel that his words were discouraging either. I think he may have been trying to prevent any sticker shock to a woman who was already clearly upset.

I also feel that he was not obligated to pay for it himself. It was the owners horse and he left it up to her if she wanted the body examined. Some people have deep spiritual or personal beliefs that a body not be desecrated. It’s not a decision I would feel comfortable making for someone else.

CA didn’t need to make the offer of a replacement horse but I’m sure he did it as a gesture of good will and to try to maintain a potentially profitable (for him) business relationship - whether through FKF sending more horses or word of mouth about how he went above and beyond to try to make a bad situation better. No, the horse he offered wasn’t going to replace your horse and you have every right to turn it down but to complain about an offer he wasn’t obligated to make in any way is simply bad form. I equate this to getting a gift from someone and you just didn’t like it so you post on Facebook what a horrible person someone is because they didn’t give you exactly what you wanted. Think about how that sounds. When I’m on the receiving end of a bad gift, I politely accept it, thank the gift giver for their kindness and then quietly exchange the gift for something more fitting for my personal taste. I’m with you - I’m not a QH person either. But you bet your butt I would have accepted it graciously and then found a way to make lemonade from those lemons.

I also agree with Lady Eboshi’s assessment. It seems that this gelding may have been treated more like a spoiled pet than a 1500 pound animal with the potential to do serious harm to his handlers. Tough love is often in order to knock these guys down a few pegs and I’m sure CA was capable of delivering on this.

It’s a shame the horse passed on but I’m with the crowd that says it was probably a breed specific congenital issue rather than anyone’s fault. Seeking to place blame on anyone in this matter is a fool’s mission - especially when you weren’t there, have no evidence to support your theory and have contradicted yourself through your comments.

I understand you have suffered a loss, but opening yourself up to a potential lawsuit for slander/libel and making yourself a target for public ridicule isn’t going to help you move on.

[Pocket_Pony]

Fairyknob Farm, I’m very sorry for your loss. I have no interest in getting into a “what you should do” lecture - just sympathy. I cannot imagine the grief you must have felt in getting that call and trying to deal with the aftermath. Until one of us is in your shoes, I don’t think it fair to pass judgment on your situation.

I’m so sorry.

[Pocket_Pony]

Ack, double post - stupid Windows 8!!!

[Midge]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;6917957]
At the point where you have a 5, 6, or 7 year old who can’t be backed–you are in a make-or-break situation. Not only is an unusable horse that age a giant negative number and a liabiity, he has NO future if something happened to YOU.

Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like there’s a possibility that all that kissy-face and tricks training on the ground somehow might have given this horse the wrong idea about “who’s on top.” .[/QUOTE]

This. Perhaps with a different start, he could have been an different horse. But when your business is predicated on kings and fairies and majik and romance and hair, sensible horsemanship is not at the top.

This was a problem horse going to a problem horse trainer. I have no idea how or why the horse died. For the owner, finding out why was not a top priority. Yet, without a why, they question the horsemanship of the training facility they chose for their boy.

On a different note, whenever I see a place that is focused more on fancy than functional (I’m thinking of the entry gate at CA’s place, for instance,) the first thing I would think is, ‘Here is where my money goes.’

[Snowflake]

[QUOTE=Midge;6918199]
When your business is predicated on kings and fairies and majik and romance and hair, sensible horsemanship is not at the top.[/QUOTE]

OMG! LOVE THIS!

[valkyrie36]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;6918007]
who is to say he didn’t offer?[/QUOTE]

True, but she didn’t mention it if he did.

[valkyrie36]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;6917955]

Offering up prices (that we do not know if they are right or wrong) is some how discouraging her? If he did not want her to do a necropsy at all I am guessing he would not have brought the subject up.

On the subject of the price, I am guessing, like so many things in life, he gave her the extreme high so there would not be any ‘you said it was only going to be $300 and now they are billing me $3000 because I ordered every test in the book, you were not honest’ in the end.[/QUOTE]

Based on her account of the incident, yes, I don’t believe he was overly encouraging about the necropsy.

My only point, having had this exact same thing happen to one of my own horses (died when with a trainer), was that in my situation, the trainer called me and was very sympathetic (none of this, horses die, oh well stuff), and asked for my permission to have the necropsy done and said he would pay for it. At the time, I believed he was being kind, but in hindsight, I believe he was also wanting to make sure his bases were covered in case we tried to blame it on him (which we didn’t).

$3000 isn’t a huge amount of money for CA to put up for the peace of mind of being able to prove that the horse died from causes unrelated to training. His level of visibility and the fact that there are so many CA haters out there would be enough to encourage ME to do it were I in his shoes.

And I don’t mind telling anyone that I am in fact biased against CA. I’ve seen him in person several times and he disgusts me. I wouldn’t doubt for one second that a horse could suffer major injury, illness, or death from things I’ve seen him do–so I don’t mind stating for the record that I’m not being totally objective here!

That said, it just seems like smart pratice for someone like him to cover his bases and have the necropsy done. The fact that he didn’t means something to me when coupled with other things I’ve seen him do. Might not mean anything to anyone else.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=valkyrie36;6918306]
True, but she didn’t mention it if he did.[/QUOTE]

would not fit the story…

I mean, he did offer her a 25k horse…oh the insult…

[Belmont]

Not a fan of NH. I mean seriously, if you shake a stick at my face you bet I will back up. NO magic in that. Not a fan of CA, though he isn’t HORRID in my book. I’ve seen a lot worse with “cowboy” trainers.

Honestly though, this is all just outrageous. Fairy Knob, I bet when you scoffed at his 25k horse and implined that it was just a cow pony was a little bit of an insult. I mean to each his own, but you could have resold that horse. Is it ever going to replace your Pharo(h)? No, well you never know, because you won’t try it. I would have taken the 25k “cow pony” (bet you won’t find one like him on CL, sorry) that I could have ridden happily without worrying about getting bucked off. I’m so sorry for your loss, I know how hard it is to lose a horse. Public slander of a famous horse trainer (with very hardy and famous connections) is probably the last thing that you should be doing right now. Go mourn with your family and friends and take care of your animals. Fighting with people and sharing your story over and over is not going to help, it is going to make you more upset.

There is plenty of this story that I see strange on both ends (yes) but how about calling your own vet or calling around for prices from other vets? How can you not drive two hours to see the horse? (Srsly, you can drive two hours there and back and be at work the next day… From a fellow Texan.) I just don’t get it, but I guess it’s because I’m not in her or CA’s position right now.

Again Fairy Knob, I am SO sorry for your loss and I do understand you are upset. I hope you do feel better and can move on from all of this.

[Candle]

How could you afford CA’s training program, but not afford to take one day off work? That’s an honest question, btw. I am genuinely confused here.

[Lady_Eboshi]

I’d like to say one thing more, about what I call “Facebook Syndrome.”

Whatever dark force compels grown adults who should know better to upload their private business, legal disputes, and deepest feelings to a semi-public or public media source I simply don’t understand. It is functionally no different than calling up the local TV station and getting it on the “news.” I say “news,” in quotation marks, because today such has a lot more to do with voyeuristic entertainment than it does with informing the public about things that actually affect their lives.

When you run it up the flagpole, honey, dirty laundry inside out, you don’t get to choose who salutes or which finger they do it with. So please spare me the “cruel and judgemental.” I’m sorry you lost the horse, but the take-home lessons here are:

(1) When you send your horse out, insure it first.

(2) If the horse dies, then there WILL be a necropsy, PAID.

(3) If at that point the trainer is culpable, negotiate from there.

(4) If that trainer acts in good faith, do NOT slander them online.

(5) If a horse is too much for you, sell it to qualified people long
before it becomes an un-ownable, un-manageable liability.

That’s about all I’ve got to say . . .

[Teddyi]

Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like there’s a possibility that all that kissy-face and tricks training on the ground somehow might have given this horse the wrong idea about “who’s on top.”

This. Agree completely.

My experiences with several rang-a-tang Iberians over the years (most were boarders) has led me to the conclusion that this is done for a reason. These horses require being in a program with constant, expert and very disciplined handling. Few of them are good choices for a novice, an ammie or a person who lacks the ability and desire to be very strong with a horse when need be. The bond one can develop with these horses can only be forged through deep, mutual respect.

I agree to an extent. I have worked with Andaluisans, Lusitanos and Lippizans for over three decades. In that time I have found these breeds to be typically incredibly intelligent, highly trainable, and overall extremely easy to work with. I agree that they require consistent, good quality handling - but no more or less than any other breed. Usually when I see people get into trouble with these horses is when they attempt to be too forceful or rough. The Iberian breeds especially tend towards being highly sensitive, and as such do far better with tact and skill over force. I think the biggest problem is, as someone pointed out with Friesians, the Iberian breeds tend to attract owners who are not experienced horse people. Add to that unrealistic expectations and ego and you get a recipe for disaster.

Tragic and sad story for the horse. I feel for the woman and her loss too. No matter what her mental state is, or whether or not she made a terrible decision (which IMHO she truly did). It’s awful to lose a horse.

As for CA, it’s amazing to me that anyone would actually allow him to touch their horse. GIANT red flags all over the place.

[Plainandtall]

I don’t think it’s proper to get into financial questioning about this. Just because a person can afford one thing, doesn’t mean they can afford everything. Being able to do one thing that others consider luxury (like own a horse anyone?) or, in this case, a Friesian horse… or a name brand training facility- does not mean people are rolling in dough- the choices to spend money where they do might be a matter of priorities and saving, not a matter of bounty. Also- being able to “afford” something is not always a financial question- sometimes it’s the setback that you can’t afford. If you are working towards a deadline- or working with a group- you can’t afford to miss work. has nothing to do with money.

I think that line of questioning is none of our business… but the confusion of why the responsibility of getting and paying for the necropsy wasn’t shifted to the Down Under people is reasonable.

Several people have said that they don’t think it’s “the responsibility” of CA to do the necropsy. It’s not his responsibility to other people… it’s his responsibility for his own clear conscience, repuation and information.

I keep being reminded of another scandalous necropsy- which was regarding the New York City carriage horse Charlie who died suddenly one morning shortly after leaving the stable on his way to work. As I understand- Charlie’s owner or driver- (may be one and the same) was really pressured and intimidated into signing over the body of the horse which then was taken over by the ASPCA. They took the horse to Cornell for a necropsy and we all sat on pins and needles waiting for the results- since no one knew the cause of his death. The ASPCA now owned the results- and when they did release information- it was only little bits and pieces of it- not the full report- short on science and heavy with the spin of the ASPCA… a spin which led to the ASPCA vet (not the necropsy vet) finally speaking out against the spin and then being suspended. Finally she resigned because of the conflict of interest the ASPCA has in it’s dealings with the carriage industry. My appologies if I got any of this story wrong. But the reason why I am bring it up is because it was a situation where necropsy results had the potential to really fry someone or to relieve them of any “guilt” in the horse’s death. The fact that the “posession” of the necropsy was shifted to someone who had a vested interest in the results being a certain way- was potentially a very hot problem- and it proved to be. (By the way- the cause of death was inconclusive)

[Teddyi]

[QUOTE=Snowflake;6907681]
Doubtful… Cray cray peeps don’t care about stuff like oh, you know, genetic health when it has HAIR and is so SPESHUL!! This horse communicated with her telepathicly through her dreams. I’m sure he would have communicated the fact that he wanted to keep his junk.[/QUOTE]

Oh jeez!! That’s laugh out loud funny!

[Halt_Near_X]

[QUOTE=Candle;6918435]
How could you afford CA’s training program, but not afford to take one day off work? That’s an honest question, btw. I am genuinely confused here.[/QUOTE]

Afford may not be meant literally. People use it a lot to refer to consequences beyond financial. If work is extremely strict about sick days, if you’ve used all your sick days and work doesn’t allow leave without pay, if you’re on a very tight deadline and missing it may cause serious reprecussions and/or firing – your choice may well be between going to work or not having a job at all. And in that case, sure, you may not be able to afford to take time off.

[kewpalace]

[QUOTE=gaitedincali;6911331]
Well, the video I posted of him winning at the NRBC would be one. ;)[/QUOTE]Additional research based on this information shows he won the 2008 NRBC Limited Open Division on a horse he did not do all the training on - which he readily admitted in this article:

He … finished in the top limited open slot on Princess On The Prowl—a horse trained by himself and the NRHA’s newest Million Dollar Rider Brent Wright. * * * Anderson gave much of the credit for the success of Princess On The Prowl to Wright. “I did all the work on her for her two-year-old year, and he trained her all of her three-year-old year,” Anderson said. He did a phenomenal job with her, and he deserves a lot of credit."

Good for him for getting out and showing.

[IIIBarsV]

When you sign a horse like that over to someone for re-education, you must assume that some pretty strong methods of obtaining submission will be used. These may include flipping, various forms of tying or hobbling, withholding normal feed or water,

Wow, I must have been doing it wrong rehabbing maneaters all these years.

I’ve never had to (or accidentally) flip, hobble, unusually tie up, use sketchy equipment, spur up, jerk on, run to the point of exhaustion, starve or dehydrate a horse to get them rehabbed into happy, confident, well-behaved individuals.

And if any one has seen Clinton’s video on youtube about “problem horses” (the one with the bay horse chasing someone around a roundbale feeder, the broncs, and the black mare who flips due to reaction to pain caused by Clinton pushing back hard on a Tom Thumb bit when she got in his face, the same one who pulls back when loaded and tied into a deathtr— excuse me, 2 horse straight load bumper pull with 7 ft wheel base)---- well, let’s just say I’ve had horses who were absolutely more dangerous that ANY horse seen on that video, and have never felt the need to beat, pound, starve, truss up, or dehydrate a single one of them.

And holy cow, I even fed them grain!!! From Day One!! LOL!!! Apparently Clinton needs to read some articles about starch, where it comes from, and what it does to blood glucose levels. If you feed low-starch, there’s no reason at all that a “hot or nervous” horse shouldn’t get a concentrated source of calories to meet their daily requirements for nutrition, especially if they are:

1. Stressed out and pacing their run, burning calories
2. Being worked beyond their fitness level and need the protein/calories/minerals to encourage quick muscle recovery, and prevent things like tying up, fatigue-related injuries, etc.

My worst on the maneaters? A 1-2-3 on the rope halter, a light spank on the bum only when required to gain a response, tons of praise for doing ANYTHING other than aggression, and standing my ground in a firm, confident manner, and verbal cues like “HEY!” or “Click click.”

You can deal with 95% of behavioral issues without being outright abusive, ya know. LOL. Most training is MENTAL, not physical domination. It’s being quick-thinking, responding at the right moments, observing the horse, setting boundaries and communicating effectively and clearly. Being persistent, consistent, patient, and stubborn. Mutual respect. Why should a horse respect you for roughing them up? Why should a horse respect you when you’ve done nothing to prove you deserve it, or that you are capable of being truly kind and pleasant?

Just because you’re pleasant doesn’t mean you’re going to let a horse stomp all over you. Just because you’re firm and confident, doesn’t mean you have to be overly aggressive, either.

Witholding food and water… Oh people, some days you just kill me.