Did a horse die at Clinton Anderson's ranch?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;6918479]
I’d like to say one thing more, about what I call “Facebook Syndrome.”…

(4) If that trainer acts in good faith, do NOT slander them online.[/QUOTE]

I think this is the heart of the matter.

Fairy Knob doesn’t think beyond herself in posting the whole story on FB or here…like a serialized Charles Dickens novel.

It never occurred to her that CA would see a problem, or even that she had to have a well-conceived motive (e.g. a warning to those seeking CA’s training). After all, she writes that she believes there was no foul-play involved so there is nothing to warn folks about.

Not a lot of thought, just a bunch of blow-by-blow story about something important to her.

[rabicon]

I agree with the fb syndrome. Many many people air all their dirty laundry for the world to see lol. I don’t understand it. I may put I had a great ride today or what we worked on but usually not much else. It’s funny when I haven’t seen a person since high school but now 17 Yeats later I know all about their break up and the fight they have with the boyfriend all over fb lol. Or how someones baby’s daddy’s doing something etc. It’s crazy to me.

[esperanza]

I am sorry for her loss. I believe she said she never rode this horse because the one time she did resulted in getting bucked off and some broken bones. The horse could have killed her. I think it was a last ditch effort to get a problem horse trained so as to keep and ride it or sell it. But it was already 7 yrs. old. It might take a month or so for her to even think of getting a horse to replace it,even if it was a bolting and bucking danger.God has strange ways of saving us from dangers. OK, if it got completely domesticated to a calm safe horse that would be one thing. But getting to own a Signature Horse is beyond most peoples finances.They are totally trained safe for everyone to ride including Grandma and the grandkids. That is why people buy them for $25,000.Its because of all the hours of training that are put into them. Now I hear they are going up to $30,000.I think she is devastated and maybe needs more time to work thru this before she makes a final decision on the Signature Horse. And maybe Clinton, being the boss man, invite her to the ranch to see the horse when things calm down.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=esperanza;6919415]
I am sorry for her loss. I believe she said she never rode this horse because the one time she did resulted in getting bucked off and some broken bones. The horse could have killed her. I think it was a last ditch effort to get a problem horse trained so as to keep and ride it or sell it. But it was already 7 yrs. old. It might take a month or so for her to even think of getting a horse to replace it,even if it was a bolting and bucking danger.God has strange ways of saving us from dangers. OK, if it got completely domesticated to a calm safe horse that would be one thing. But getting to own a Signature Horse is beyond most peoples finances.They are totally trained safe for everyone to ride including Grandma and the grandkids. That is why people buy them for $25,000.Its because of all the hours of training that are put into them. Now I hear they are going up to $30,000.I think she is devastated and maybe needs more time to work thru this before she makes a final decision on the Signature Horse. And maybe Clinton, being the boss man, invite her to the ranch to see the horse when things calm down.[/QUOTE]

Actually, if I were Clinton I’d put on some extra fruitbat repellent and be done with it.

[ldaziens]

Why does “grieving fruitbat” have such a familiar ring to it???

ETA - Nope, it wasn’t “grieving fruitbat”; it was a “mourning moonbat” that I was thinking of.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=IIIBarsV;6918811]
Wow, I must have been doing it wrong rehabbing maneaters all these years.

I’ve never had to (or accidentally) flip, hobble, unusually tie up, use sketchy equipment, spur up, jerk on, run to the point of exhaustion, starve or dehydrate a horse to get them rehabbed into happy, confident, well-behaved individuals.

And if any one has seen Clinton’s video on youtube about “problem horses” (the one with the bay horse chasing someone around a roundbale feeder, the broncs, and the black mare who flips due to reaction to pain caused by Clinton pushing back hard on a Tom Thumb bit when she got in his face, the same one who pulls back when loaded and tied into a deathtr— excuse me, 2 horse straight load bumper pull with 7 ft wheel base)---- well, let’s just say I’ve had horses who were absolutely more dangerous that ANY horse seen on that video, and have never felt the need to beat, pound, starve, truss up, or dehydrate a single one of them.

And holy cow, I even fed them grain!!! From Day One!! LOL!!! Apparently Clinton needs to read some articles about starch, where it comes from, and what it does to blood glucose levels. If you feed low-starch, there’s no reason at all that a “hot or nervous” horse shouldn’t get a concentrated source of calories to meet their daily requirements for nutrition, especially if they are:

1. Stressed out and pacing their run, burning calories
2. Being worked beyond their fitness level and need the protein/calories/minerals to encourage quick muscle recovery, and prevent things like tying up, fatigue-related injuries, etc.

My worst on the maneaters? A 1-2-3 on the rope halter, a light spank on the bum only when required to gain a response, tons of praise for doing ANYTHING other than aggression, and standing my ground in a firm, confident manner, and verbal cues like “HEY!” or “Click click.”

You can deal with 95% of behavioral issues without being outright abusive, ya know. LOL. Most training is MENTAL, not physical domination. It’s being quick-thinking, responding at the right moments, observing the horse, setting boundaries and communicating effectively and clearly. Being persistent, consistent, patient, and stubborn. Mutual respect. Why should a horse respect you for roughing them up? Why should a horse respect you when you’ve done nothing to prove you deserve it, or that you are capable of being truly kind and pleasant?

Just because you’re pleasant doesn’t mean you’re going to let a horse stomp all over you. Just because you’re firm and confident, doesn’t mean you have to be overly aggressive, either.

Witholding food and water… Oh people, some days you just kill me.[/QUOTE]

THIS. Thank you.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=ldaziens;6919490]
Why does “grieving fruitbat” have such a familiar ring to it???

ETA - Nope, it wasn’t “grieving fruitbat”; it was a “mourning moonbat” that I was thinking of.[/QUOTE]

close enough

batty in any case!

[jenm]

[QUOTE=Midge;6918199]

On a different note, whenever I see a place that is focused more on fancy than functional (I’m thinking of the entry gate at CA’s place, for instance,) the first thing I would think is, ‘Here is where my money goes.’[/QUOTE]

Makes sense to me. My mule went to be started by a trainer who would put the likes of CA to shame. His place was in the high desert of Southern California and about no where close to fancy but it was safe and well put together. Needless to say, my mule got a fabulous start under saddle and is so amazing.

I found this interesting quote by CA:

“Frustration begins where knowledge ends” ~ Clinton Anderson

I wonder how many times he has run out of knowledge…

[mvp]

[QUOTE=jenm;6919946]

“Frustration begins where knowledge ends” ~ Clinton Anderson

I wonder how many times he has run out of knowledge…[/QUOTE]

Well, you can count at least one if you snagged a screenshot of his public response to Fairy Knob.

[microbovine]

I wonder how many horses submit to NH simply out of exhaustion. I have seen many that are dripping with sweat by the end of a session.

[goneriding24]

Yanno, I kind of liked CA for a long while, out of the NH crowd. Then, it seems he has fallen into the marketing trap. Lots of money and adulation and travel and money and adulation. Getting farther from ‘the little people’. He’s getting a cult like status like a certain other NH guru whosenameshallnotbespoken. I’ve noticed some are starting to follow him and think he’s that and a bag of chips, when it’s only basic horsemanship which has been around for 2000 years. But to argue with them, well, maybe not argue, but to debate with them, it starts to sound like you-know-who followers.

Last night, I happened on Chris Cox show and thought I’d give it a watch. He’s softened a bit!! Not near as touchy and crusty as he used to be. I figured he’s figured you get more with honey than vinegar. I still like him quite a bit but I’m still not understanding all this bending a horse in two! Bending and softening but in two is odd to me. Anyway, hadn’t seen him for quite a while and he’s quite a bit more personable.

[goneriding24]

[QUOTE=microbovine;6920010]
I wonder how many horses submit to NH simply out of exhaustion. I have seen many that are dripping with sweat by the end of a session.[/QUOTE]

I don’t have a problem with a horse sweating a bit during the first few sessions, but not out of exhaustion. I think a horse starts to pay attention and listen when you see the first smidge of sweat in the triangle of neck, in front of the shoulder. Do what you need to do and quit. The horse should pay attention a little quicker the next day and a little quicker the day after. If a horse has to be sweated and sweated day after day to get his attention, I’d say the horse is a bit of a stonehead and maybe not smart at all!! Nothing turns a horse off quicker than day after day of drilling and sweating and being worn out. That is where reading the horse comes into play.

Plus, I don’t mind a horse sweating if we were doing something, like pasture riding or working cows and calves, but learning at the same time. It’s the endless drilling which bothers me, which I what I think you mean.

[LookmaNohands]

[QUOTE=jenm;6919946]
Makes sense to me. My mule went to be started by a trainer who would put the likes of CA to shame. His place was in the high desert of Southern California and about no where close to fancy but it was safe and well put together. Needless to say, my mule got a fabulous start under saddle and is so amazing.

I found this interesting quote by CA:

“Frustration begins where knowledge ends” ~ Clinton Anderson

I wonder how many times he has run out of knowledge…[/QUOTE]

I believe the original quote was from Xenphon and goes:

“Where knowledge ends, violence begins.”

[CFFarm]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;6918479]

Whatever dark force compels grown adults who should know better to upload

When you run it up the flagpole, honey, dirty laundry inside out, you don’t get to choose who salutes or which finger they do it with.

I am SO stealing this for my signature line! ( With your permission of course).

When you have had a horse for more than a few months and have seen no progress, I find it’s usually the owner who needs training as much as the horse.

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=katarine;6916160]
Tamara in TN and I both witnessed that event. Clinton turned from the colt and walked way. The crowd gasped when that colt dove after him, teeth bared. That was CA’s ONLY clue that colt was done with him. It was one of the worst things I’ve witnessed in my horse-life, and don’t forget I grew up riding WP horses: I know horses and I know abuse. .[/QUOTE]

yes. I was there. It should be said that K. and I were not acquainted even online and I had gone with a horse girl friend mostly to visit with the Purina District Guy (rusty) as we were still Gold Dealers for them back then and the dog and pony show was not of any interest to me, but the trade show and old friends were…

it had not been since I regularly worked with actual killer pen horses, that I had seen such a sneak attack from a horse on a human…

horses to horses ? sure…but not on a person

Tamara

[katarine]

And it bears noting that he had spent a ton of time chatting up what a ‘nice little horse this was going to be for a child, or a ladies horse (the colt was tiny, stout but tiny)’ and yes, the horse had been extremely tolerant - for a very long time, against some tall odds (AKA you should have seen how much crap he had hung off of this colt).

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6913572]

And I disagree, two weeks is plenty of time to overwork a horse in a program where flooding to learned helplessness and exhaustion, extreme stress, and withholding water are accepted procedures in a ‘training’ regime; especially a hairy black horse in a hot, sunny climate. .[/QUOTE]

I have seen CA several times and he does NOT use “Flooding” and I have heard him speak against it. Flooding is psychological torture similar to waterboarding.

Approach and retreat when the horse relaxes is not flooding. In looding there is no retreat

[katarine]

You did not see him at Road to The Horse when he absolutely provoked that horse into attacking him. Does he ‘retreat’? Yes. But only to go get something else to play “approach and retreat” with. And he does it hastily, on quick feet, like he’s in a race. He bothers horses.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;6920186]
I have seen CA several times and he does NOT use “Flooding” and I have heard him speak against it. Flooding is psychological torture similar to waterboarding.

Approach and retreat when the horse relaxes is not flooding. In looding there is no retreat[/QUOTE]

Flooding actually could be useful IF done correctly. And no, it isn’t torture.
http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/agoraphobia-discussions/general-support/3623082-flooding-vs-systematic-desensitization

The problem i,s for instance, tying a horse in a trailer when it is frightened in that situation; the horse fights, resulting in pain and injury (or death) and if the horse survives now has associations of pain and injury which increase the fear levels in the future, not decrease.

For flooding to be effective there must be no negative consequence no matter how long the fear stimulus is presented. This is difficult to ensure with animals capable of flipping, self-demolishing on fencing, breaking their necks, legs, etc.

…and is why people recommend desensitization rather than flooding - but note that desensitization doesn’t produce huge self destructive action if correctly done. And doesn’t involvea provoking level of ‘approach’.

[rabicon]

That’s ok I happened along a new NH trainer last night on tv lol. Needless to say he was breaking a colt. Little qh look like. On the third day he was on the horse. IMO thats to quick. The horse was a nervous wreck about the saddle and of course he just got ran and ran around a round pen until covered in sweat. Now it being a 30 min show not sure how long he was ran but before the running he had a little sweat at his shoulder after he was covered in sweat it looked like. Then he gets on and runs him under saddle because well the horse needs to go forward so let’s hit him on the rear with the reins and make him run. Not my idea of a good start on a horse. I’d like a horse to at least be comfortable with the saddle before riding lol.
The worst part was telling people to stay at the horses shoulder right on the horse when he put the saddle on and the horse starts bucking. Good way to
teach a beginner trying these methods to get ran over and seriously hurt. It was pull him in a tight circle and horse bucking but let’s stay at his shoulder. Idk just didn’t seem at all safe for him much less someone that has no clue. Of corse this guy also has a YouTube video with a 10 year old riding with him with no helmet, on a 4 yr old pony that was a good little pony it seemed but then puts the kid on the 2 yr old green mare thats been started 65 days earlier still with no helmet.