Did a horse die at Clinton Anderson's ranch?

[LookmaNohands]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;6920186]
I have seen CA several times and he does NOT use “Flooding” and I have heard him speak against it. Flooding is psychological torture similar to waterboarding.

Approach and retreat when the horse relaxes is not flooding. In looding there is no retreat[/QUOTE]

Wrong.

He absolutely uses flooding! He used it with “Tricky” the OTTB in his series on HRTV. There was NO retreat at all. Just the bullwhip. Clinton barely hung on to him.

Completely unnecessary!

I reschool OTTBs too and don’t do most of what he did in that series.

IMHO CA is an idiot!

And that is being nice!!

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=rabicon;6921190]
That’s ok I happened along a new NH trainer last night on tv lol. Needless to say he was breaking a colt. Little qh look like. On the third day he was on the horse. IMO thats to quick. The horse was a nervous wreck about the saddle and of course he just got ran and ran around a round pen until covered in sweat. Now it being a 30 min show not sure how long he was ran but before the running he had a little sweat at his shoulder after he was covered in sweat it looked like. Then he gets on and runs him under saddle because well the horse needs to go forward so let’s hit him on the rear with the reins and make him run. Not my idea of a good start on a horse. I’d like a horse to at least be comfortable with the saddle before riding lol.
The worst part was telling people to stay at the horses shoulder right on the horse when he put the saddle on and the horse starts bucking. Good way to
teach a beginner trying these methods to get ran over and seriously hurt. It was pull him in a tight circle and horse bucking but let’s stay at his shoulder. Idk just didn’t seem at all safe for him much less someone that has no clue. Of corse this guy also has a YouTube video with a 10 year old riding with him with no helmet, on a 4 yr old pony that was a good little pony it seemed but then puts the kid on the 2 yr old green mare thats been started 65 days earlier still with no helmet.[/QUOTE]

If you’re going to judge ANY western (or most foreign) horsemen/women fairly, you simply MUST get over The Helmet Thing. Wearing helmets is simply not part of their particular equestrian culture, any more than a foxhunter would wear batwing chaps. It’s not an indictment of their judgement or horsemanship; it’s simply not part of the regional tradition they represent. Please try to keep a more open mind.

[goneriding24]

[QUOTE=rabicon;6921190]
That’s ok I happened along a new NH trainer last night on tv lol. Needless to say he was breaking a colt. Little qh look like. On the third day he was on the horse. IMO thats to quick. The horse was a nervous wreck about the saddle and of course he just got ran and ran around a round pen until covered in sweat. Now it being a 30 min show not sure how long he was ran but before the running he had a little sweat at his shoulder after he was covered in sweat it looked like. Then he gets on and runs him under saddle because well the horse needs to go forward so let’s hit him on the rear with the reins and make him run. Not my idea of a good start on a horse. I’d like a horse to at least be comfortable with the saddle before riding lol.
The worst part was telling people to stay at the horses shoulder right on the horse when he put the saddle on and the horse starts bucking. Good way to
teach a beginner trying these methods to get ran over and seriously hurt. It was pull him in a tight circle and horse bucking but let’s stay at his shoulder. Idk just didn’t seem at all safe for him much less someone that has no clue. Of corse this guy also has a YouTube video with a 10 year old riding with him with no helmet, on a 4 yr old pony that was a good little pony it seemed but then puts the kid on the 2 yr old green mare thats been started 65 days earlier still with no helmet.[/QUOTE]

Actually, in three days, in most cases, done properly, it’s fine to get on. You might get a slight turn or just sit there and pet the horse, doing nothing on him. I don’t care for the RTH thing, of getting them saddled and moving down the road. Not my style at all. For me, moving too fast, but there is also the thing of moving too slowly and irritating the horse. Read the horse and he’ll tell you how fast or slow, I’ve never had a one-size fits all type training. If the horse is ready, get on sooner, I’ve had them born broke and then talked to the owner, thinking the horse had been started already, only to find out I was the first one aboard. A little sweat won’t hurt them but all that frickin’ roundpenning will. Get on, get a little steering and head out, if only the arena. Make sure you have some brakes and then go with the flow.

@Lady Eboshi;6921680

If you’re going to judge ANY western (or most foreign) horsemen/women fairly, you simply MUST get over The Helmet Thing. Wearing helmets is simply not part of their particular equestrian culture, any more than a foxhunter would wear batwing chaps. It’s not an indictment of their judgement or horsemanship; it’s simply not part of the regional tradition they represent. Please try to keep a more open mind.

Funny, I was thinking of this today. I’m not a fan of helmets for anyone. However, the way my physical body is slowing down and changing, if I do riding again, I’ll prolly get a helmet. But I’m not going to tell everyone else they have to wear one, kids included.

[rabicon]

Oh believe me I know many western riders that have kids that don’t wear helmets, yet none of them but their kid on a 2 yr old mare that’s wiggly with 65 days on her either. The mare actually started bucking with this guy in her in the beginning and he had a hard time keeping her from dancing at the halt. IMO if your sticking a 10 yr old in that put a helmet on them at least. More so just don’t put a 10 yr old rider on it at all and it wasn’t a little mare either. Kid had a long way to go down if something happened.

About getting on so soon. I said that I’d think a horse should at least be comfortable with the saddle before getting on. This horse by no means was comfortable with the saddle. The horse was a nervous wreck about it and actually was a nervous wreck when he was working it before hand with yielding it’s hq
stuff. Watching the show you could tell that horse was not ready for what was going on with it IMO. It was a nervous Neelie and made me nervous just watching the whole thing. But my main issue was running the crap out of the horse till it was soaked and wouldn’t run anymore. Then getting on and running it more. The horse was walking off but had no clue about steering so it wasn’t “forward” he said. No the horse was overly confused at what was happening. He says he’s not listening to my leg, well no sh** he’s not he has no clue what your doing. So that’s when he starts popping it with the reins in the hqs and just makes it run around the round pen. I agree that some horses are easy and you can hop on in a few days but this horse IMO was just not ready. Ill see if I can find a video of it and pm but I’m not sure if I can.

[Cindyg]

@IIIBarsV;6918811

And if any one has seen Clinton’s video on youtube about “problem horses” (the one with the bay horse chasing someone around a roundbale feeder, the broncs, and the black mare who flips due to reaction to pain caused by Clinton pushing back hard on a Tom Thumb bit when she got in his face, the same one who pulls back when loaded and tied into a deathtr— excuse me, 2 horse straight load bumper pull with 7 ft wheel base)---- well, let’s just say I’ve had horses who were absolutely more dangerous that ANY horse seen on that video, and have never felt the need to beat, pound, starve, truss up, or dehydrate a single one of them.

Here it is.

[jdeboer01]

He really wasn’t doing anything outrageous to the horse that rears and flips over. I don’t really see him doing anything outrageous to any of the horses on that video. What the horses were doing before he stepped in was outrageous though.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

First, FKF, I’m very sorry for your loss. That must have been a devastating phone call to receive.

I wasn’t really aware, until this thread, that CA had a ranch that took in horses for training. I’m surprised he has so many applicants that he must interview. One would think most people would rather use someone local with a proven track record among people one knew.

[Karosel]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;6923001]
First, FKF, I’m very sorry for your loss. That must have been a devastating phone call to receive.

I wasn’t really aware, until this thread, that CA had a ranch that took in horses for training. I’m surprised he has so many applicants that he must interview. One would think most people would rather use someone local with a proven track record among people one knew.[/QUOTE]

nah, it’s much cooler to say your horse was trained at CA’s place.

[kewpalace]

[QUOTE=Karosel;6923103]
it’s much cooler to say your horse was trained at CA’s place.[/QUOTE]And they don’t “know” the local trainers usually (or won’t get to know them or have heard “bad” things about them) but they “know” Clinton. Surely, their horse will be safe with Clinton.

[goneriding24]

[QUOTE=Karosel;6923103]
nah, it’s much cooler to say your horse was trained at CA’s place.[/QUOTE]

Heh, after what I’ve seen lately from some of his vids, if I were in the market for a trained horse, I’d probably want to knock off some of the price due to this ‘training’. Sort of like someone else’s ‘training’. I now wouldn’t give much of a plugged nickel because I’d have to redo and fix some major holes in the horse.

[Unfforgettable]

As for CA contracting a necropsy on his dime…it wasn’t his horse, and unless the owner signed something specifically granting him permission, that could open a whole 'nother can of worms.

While I am decidedly not a CA fan, I’d guess his “horses die here” comment is more a reflection of “sure, it’s possible for a horse to die while it’s here…just like they can die somewhere else” rather than “a percentage of horses coming through the program will die”.

I thought his initial response, now gone, was over the top and shouldn’t have been published as any sort of professional response. However, it wasn’t unlike what a lot of folks post here when confronted with fruitbats and majikal butterfly farting, rainbow eating psychic hairball horses.

[ldaziens]

Somehow, I fell into a COTH wormhole - yet again, and ended up at another TX trainwreck -

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?281554-Alisija-Zabavska-Granger-Anyone-know-anything-about-this-Trainer&highlight=Alisija+Zabavska+Granger

Whew! I have a draft cross that I would love to send off to “fat camp” while I focus on my older / hard keeping / heaves / anhydrosis / arthritic mare. But, COTH has managed to put the fear of dog in me on that topic.

[TequilaMockingbird]

Did anyone see the ride CA put on Rugged Lark at his retirement ceremony? I’m surprised Mrs. Harris herself didn’t stop the show in the middle of his ride. Lark was clearly upset.

I didn’t see it in person but it was played during the end credits of the Rugged Lark: His Finest Days DVD.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Unfforgettable;6923215]
As for CA contracting a necropsy on his dime…it wasn’t his horse, and unless the owner signed something specifically granting him permission, that could open a whole 'nother can of worms.

While I am decidedly not a CA fan, I’d guess his “horses die here” comment is more a reflection of “sure, it’s possible for a horse to die while it’s here…just like they can die somewhere else” rather than “a percentage of horses coming through the program will die”.

I thought his initial response, now gone, was over the top and shouldn’t have been published as any sort of professional response. However, it wasn’t unlike what a lot of folks post here when confronted with fruitbats and majikal butterfly farting, rainbow eating psychic hairball horses.[/QUOTE]

Idle observation: Usually a trainer has you sign a release of liability when you send them your horse; what did this one say? If he had care, custody & control insurance they might have paid for the necropsy and then made a settlement.
If the owner of this horse was an ammie, I’d cut them a lot more slack all the way around, but if they’re claiming to be any kind of professional operation (breeding, selling, training etc.) they should have known enough to cover themselves.

The other part that’s a head-scratcher is, at the time the horse (unsuccessfully-backed 7-year old who had hurt people) was sent to CA, his monetary value was essentially “nil.” Whatever one might think of CA’s training methods, he DID offer them a horse of around $25,000.00 + value to make it right, which is sure going above and beyond the call in my book. Now any “pro” worth their 1040’s should have JUMPED at the chance to make sweet lemonade out of a very sour situation indeed. It could have been plain bad luck, and I can’t fault the trainer.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Unfforgettable;6923215]
As for CA contracting a necropsy on his dime…it wasn’t his horse, and unless the owner signed something specifically granting him permission, that could open a whole 'nother can of worms.

While I am decidedly not a CA fan, I’d guess his “horses die here” comment is more a reflection of “sure, it’s possible for a horse to die while it’s here…just like they can die somewhere else” rather than “a percentage of horses coming through the program will die”.

I thought his initial response, now gone, was over the top and shouldn’t have been published as any sort of professional response. However, it wasn’t unlike what a lot of folks post here when confronted with fruitbats and majikal butterfly farting, rainbow eating psychic hairball horses.[/QUOTE]

Idle observation: Usually a trainer has you sign a release of liability when you send them your horse; what did this one say? If he had care, custody & control insurance they might have paid for the necropsy and then made a settlement.
If the owner of this horse was an ammie, I’d cut them a lot more slack all the way around, but if they’re claiming to be any kind of professional operation (breeding, selling, training etc.) they should have known enough to cover themselves.

The other part that’s a head-scratcher is, at the time the horse (unsuccessfully-backed 7-year old who had hurt people) was sent to CA, his monetary value was essentially “nil.” Whatever one might think of CA’s training methods, he DID offer them a horse of around $25,000.00 + value to make it right, which is sure going above and beyond the call in my book. Now any “pro” worth their 1040’s should have JUMPED at the chance to make sweet lemonade out of a very sour situation indeed. It could have been plain bad luck, and I can’t fault the trainer.

[goneriding24]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;6923426]
The other part that’s a head-scratcher is, at the time the horse (unsuccessfully-backed 7-year old who had hurt people) was sent to CA, his monetary value was essentially “nil.” Whatever one might think of CA’s training methods, he DID offer them a horse of around $25,000.00 + value to make it right, which is sure going above and beyond the call in my book. Now any “pro” worth their 1040’s should have JUMPED at the chance to make sweet lemonade out of a very sour situation indeed. It could have been plain bad luck, and I can’t fault the trainer.[/QUOTE]

This very thing has been niggling at me also. Or maybe he was trying to head all this off at the pass, when she took to FB, it went out of control.

[Jaegermonster]

I would never. ever. ever. never ever ever send any horse of mine to any one where I am not allowed or even encouraged to visit it at any time. I dont care if it’s George Freakin Morris. If my horse is there and I’m paying the bills, I’ll come see it and check on it any time I like.
That should have been the first red flag for this whack job right there.

[fburton]

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6920078]
yes. I was there. It should be said that K. and I were not acquainted even online and I had gone with a horse girl friend mostly to visit with the Purina District Guy (rusty) as we were still Gold Dealers for them back then and the dog and pony show was not of any interest to me, but the trade show and old friends were…[/QUOTE]
OMG, horrendous! Had CA done anything to provoke the horse or p*ss it off previously?

[WalkInTheWoods]

[QUOTE=fburton;6924888]
OMG, horrendous! Had CA done anything to provoke the horse or p*ss it off previously?[/QUOTE]
He systematically provoked and bullied the horse. The attack did not take place on the first day. The horse just had enough of CA and found an opportunity to retaliate.

[katarine]

He used every pool noodle, chain saw, boat buoy, Mounted Shooter pistol, leaf blower, and splint boot in the county. His splint boots had little pieces of pool noodle flapping from them, for cripes sake. He had spoken many times over the course of Friday and Saturday about the little horse- saying how KIND and EASY this little horse was, such a NICE horse, will make a nice ladies or child’s horse.

Until that sweet, kind,trying little horse had enough.