sometimes they push those 4 and 5 year olds so forward they lose their balance - remember those are pretty much sales videos not horse shows - and when they are SO forward over their tempo, a half halt will be taken not in the haunches coming under but in the poll… they are pushing down not up. Youth, and lack of strength… as would be expected in a 4-5 year old.
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wow. so different. do not look anything like the collection and power we have today.
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I think BTV is the either the first or most visible change a horse makes in his posture when he his running out of core and pecs that hold the front of his rib cage in that uphill orientation. If a horse ducks behind the vertical momentarily in his work but can be opened back up at the throat latch and his throughness checked, I think that momentary BTV can be noted but not harped upon by a trainer or a judge. If it becomes the normal posture for a horse, I think you have a serious problem.
My bases for this:
I worked for a very good H/J-turned-dressage pro who honest-to-God never produced a BTV problem in her horses. I think she took longer to get them through the lower levels than do other dressage-died-in-the-wool pros, but she was also adept at riding them forward, back-to-front and going forward. Those of us who cut our teeth in hunter world know how to keep a horse’s throatlatch open. We have to learn to feel the connection and throughness that dressagists know, but we can go forward and not mistakenly let a horse get behind out leg as we pursue the contact in the hand that folks want.
I also spent a long time riding a National Show horse whose build made it easy for him to drop his rib cage. He could do that in a footfall or two and it would take you several strides to fix it. His neck-- as it was built and as others had screwed it up-- also gave itself to breaking at C2 and C3. That horse taught me to never, ever take in my hand unless I really had his ribcage and base of his neck.
In a Charlotte Dujardin clinic, I saw a better version of this kind of a horse-- a schoolmaster with a good kid rider–who had mastered the art of tucking his chin and leaving his back low. This was a better built, less screwed up version of the National Show Horse I was riding at the time. That helped me appreciate the danger of riding the position of the neck without feeling what was going on from the shoulders back.
Then, I asked Christine Traurig and a very nice, casual young horse clinic about BTV. She said that it was a momentary thing in young horses and that it would go away as the horse got stronger.
I really put all these things together-- including my hunter-turned-dressage pro’s not having a problem with this-- to really think about changing the exercise I’m doing with a horse or taking a step back to re-open the throat latch if they get behind the vertical. If the rib cage has not dropped when the nose comes in, I think it will soon. There’s no point in riding in that incorrect posture, so I just re-establish the uphillness first.
Be careful with that last paragraph-- this is me riding by myself and making shit up. But my current Ay-rab/WB mare is pretty dang good in the base of her neck and about keeping her throatlatch open and poll on top.
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Nor the extension. 
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Thanks mvp, this is the kind of response I was looking for.
It is so easy to fall into the trap of homing in on the head and the neck, and failing to see what is happening behind.
I really want to learn how to see what is correct.
In theory , I know but it takes correct teaching to see it for yourself.
If I were “looking for correct” I’d teach myself to look for the orientation of the rib cage.
When I could see that, then I’d look at the legs next (I think)-- does the horse look like a “leg mover”? That will look like legs reaching out from the body from the elbow or stifle, but you’ll notice that the shoulder/hip/back doesn’t seem relaxed enough to be allowing those limbs to be so far out. I know that’s a very crude description. But I hope you can see what I mean: Looking for a low rib cage combined with flailing legs will tell you the vast majority of what you want to know.
Look at the head and neck last. Just for the fun of it, find a picture of the moving horse, put your thumb over the head and neck and evaluate the rest of the horse’s posture without even seeing what’s going on ahead of the shoulder. I also believe that, biomechanically speaking, the head and neck position should be an outcome of what the horse’s posture is doing, not the cause of it. Because we can influence posture by controlling the head and neck, however, we tend to do that… and then we tend to look at the head and neck as though those will tell us a great deal about what’s going on from the shoulder back.
The head and neck will do that, but only in a very coarse way.
All this is what I took from watching and riding that National Show horse for so long. Everything about that horse was about leaving the head and neck alone except in reference to what you felt about the uphill (or flat) orientation of his rib cage. When you have spent a long time riding a horse who can tuck his chin and leave you sitting in a hole, you get really good at feeling and seeing that.
Also, I take seriously the Western disciplines that also want that uphill orientation of the rib cage yet don’t have the ability to minutely control the position of the head and neck with direct contact the way we do in dressage. Don’t get me wrong: Those guys absolutely do control head and neck position, both as a way to influence posture and also in that incorrect, posing way that we are discussing here. But when those horses are really allowed to move in work, they do get to use their head and neck as biomechanically intended: As a counter weight to the hind end and rest of the body. IMO, it’s worth it for every horseman to watch and consider horses moving when their head and neck are unconstrained.
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My experience has been that so many riders have horses above the bit, behind the verticle and hollow that it has become something that is “normal” and people don’t see it. I see so many faults. I have sat for years with a ‘R’ judge and trainer who would point out everything to me. It is easy to see when you are not a rider who is biased.
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When I learned that most of my physical problems, both in real life and on horseback, came from my until then undiagnosed Multiple Sclerosis, I toyed with the idea of finally getting some dressage lessons, only the lowest level type of lessons. With my MS there is no way in the world that I would ever be able to ride top level dressage, this was for personal improvement only. For reference I am a Forward Seat rider (mainly Littauer). Also for reference when I got my first horse my riding teacher was a BHSI Morven Park graduate who, in my third lesson on my new Anglo-Arab, took the time during a contact lesson to show me what to look for so I could tell if the horse went behind the vertical, a HUGE no-no for her–a huge no-no as it would show people that I did not know how to ride correctly AND it was bad for the horse. I basically just wanted to learn the principles of using my seat and I also desperately wanted to make my hand aids and contact better.
So, twenty-five years or so later than that lesson, I got on the Web to see where dressage was and to look for riders that looked like they were taught properly. All I found was pictures and videos of horses going around behind the vertical, even at the top levels of dressage (unfortunately including some from the Spanish Riding School.)
I was SHOCKED!
So my search narrowed to those rare, rare instances where their horses were not proudly shown going around behind the vertical all the time.
Ahem. I was disappointed yet again.
I am not rich. I simply cannot afford to pay $50.00 USD on up for a lesson in how to ride a horse improperly, I ALREADY KNOW how to ride a horse improperly, thank you very much. I would require a lesson horse with a dressage teacher since I no longer own a horse, and all the horses I saw were obviously trained to go behind the vertical while under saddle. I do not have vast experience riding horses behind the vertical and to be brutally honest I have absolutely no interest in riding a horse behind the vertical and paying big bucks for the privilege.
So I read and re-read my vast collection of dressage books, looking for those important clues about the proper timing of the aids and the proper strength of the aids and for the signs of a horse that is actually moving properly. I have a good hunt seat riding teacher who, after a decade of teaching me, has a deep knowledge of the philosophy and practices of the Forward Seat school of horsemanship, and she has had some dressage training (1 1/2 years of instruction from the best teacher she could find.) I, the horse, and my riding teacher have very interesting lessons where we all learn a lot, I work at refining my aids and timing my aids correctly, and each and every ride I make good and sure that the horse does not go behind the vertical. In fact I told my riding teacher that I wanted to be yelled at severely each and every time the horse went behind vertical, and that has not happened much at all.
And I would rather be a spectator at an American Saddlebred Show than even a top notch dressage show. At least the top ASBs are not going around the ring behind the vertical unlike the top dressage horses (yes, I know, they have other problems, but so do the dressage horses).
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Yawn.
Re-yawn.
So many book readers, « know it all » beginners, and pseudo judges…
And that video of the 1964 Olympics… These horse do not follow the rest of what the article 401 is promoting… (It’s date from 1921) with some wide open mouths, rushed horses, counter bent, and hold pretty tight in the arms.
The third horse is clearly above the bit, there is no collection… The rider is rising the extended trot? It seems smoother than the other rides, who are fairly tensed and rushed, yet this horse seems quite unprepared for the task.
If this is what people want to go back to… your average amateur is already there.
My experience has been that so many riders have horses above the bit, behind the verticle and hollow that it has become something that is “normal” and people don’t see it. I see so many faults.
Some people just don’t want to learn anything, they want to be right.
You think you are specials and are seeing things others don’t… Oh, and the good old days…
Do I believe everything is perfect? No. Do I believe things can be improved? Yes.
But instead of pretending to know the « truth », I educate myself by riding, taking lessons from professionals, scribing with FEI judges and trying to have a wider perspective than the point of my horse’s nose.
So crusaders of the BV, I salute you.
Here’s Dr. Klimke on Ahlerich during some piaffe steps which won at the 1984’s Olympics.
https://youtu.be/U264sa3aSQk
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It is amazing how far in 20 years the riding & horseflesh improved (if you have a chance to watch the 1964 Olympic film vs Klimkes ride). Then compare that ride to CDJ’s rides over the past 2 Olympics.
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You quoted my post where I specifically address the 1964 video. 
Oh my. Someone posted something critical of RK and A!!! Not only the piaffe. I had the distinct impression he was moving long-short behind in the trot before the piaffe. And that canter pirouette (“not his best” ) almost looked like he was spinning around with little sitting.
If this were a current rider, many on this board would skewer them.
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Here is an interesting discussion about young horse program. At about the 40 minute mark, they discuss the position of the horse’s poll. Dressage Talk with Christoph Hess and Eva Moller about Young Horses training and judging
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I’m not sure, but I think High Noon, the horse Philippe Karl has been training is a WB, and he goes with his poll at the highest point and he collects.
Something I look for when I’m trying to see whether a horse is learning to collect, is if the hind legs are starting to transcribe a lower arc, because a btv horse with a dropped chest (more weight on the forehand) will pick his hinds up higher rather than lower, and will sometimes even learn to hover with his hinds rather than taking more weight on them.
A horse who is taking more weight on his hinds however, will take a lower step in back, while his front end becomes lighter thereby freeing his fronts up to make a higher arc.
Obviously, I’m interested in the theory too, and want to be able to see the differences between “classical” dressage training in which the horses are at or in front of the vertical and collected, vs “competitive” dressage in which the horses are active and flashy and spectacular even though they’re not actually collected.
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I think looking at the position of the hocks, and how far behind the croup the legs go in the “back” phase of the step, is a better indicator. To collect the haunches need to be further under the body.
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Really?
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Alibi18, your insecurity is showing.
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This video is excellent. Very interesting discussion with great information.
Yes, thank you for posting it. I havent been able to watch it all the way through yet. But when I get the chance I will.
I didn’t watch the whole thing, but for those who did were there any demo rides?
The reason I ask is because of all the disagreement about what is considered btv (or apparently, even vertical) and what isn’t, what is considered btv but still collected, and what is ifv or atv but collected or not collected.
IOW, I think there are quite a few drawings and pix, but video footage with discussion would certainly be interesting.
