Did someone move the third vertebra when I wasnt looking?

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

I’ve been watching a lot of dressage videos lately.
Some competitions. some sale videos , and a few training videos.

One of the bedrock rules of dressage is that
“The Poll is always the highest point.”

So when was the addendum "Except if it’s a warmblood " added to the rules?

None of the FEI level horses that I saw had its poll at highest point.

Ditto, for sale videos, all WBs of course. Especially at canter work.

They were all slightly BTV , none extremely overbent , none seemed tense.
To my admittedly limited eye, they seemed through, submissive, and relaxed.

Do judges still follow this directive or do they just ignore BTV unless its especially egregious?

Can I horse whose poll is not the highest point still work over his back, and be through? Can he still be in self carriage?

Does this principle still apply?

[AZ_TD]

I have a horse who loves to have his poll the highest point, but unfortunately does not like contact with the bit or work over his back :). I gave up riding dressage with him.

[joiedevie99]

IMHO, judge’s have mostly stopped treating it as a mortal sin. That doesn’t mean it’s not a fault - but it’s maybe .5 or 1 point rather than an automatic 5.

IMHO, poll as the highest point is the ideal - the end goal. It isn’t necessarily something we strive for every minute of every ride. Heck, I intentionally drop the poll on one of mine in the show ring before the pirouette work. It’s a work in progress - and it helps him stay through and over his back.

[kande04]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

Can I horse whose poll is not the highest point still work over his back, and be through? Can he still be in self carriage?

From what I can tell, as soon as a horse comes btv his chest drops, so he loses whatever collection he might have had. He may only lose it for an instant and then recover, or he may not have been collected in the first place, but I’m pretty sure that btv and collection are not compatible.

I think that what’s happened in competitive dressage is that the judges are allowing neck collection to substitute for true collection, which is kind of odd considering that the ability to collect is such a big part of what dressage is about. I also think that keeping the horses btv and on the forehand can help some horses get better scores, because it prevents them from looking around or otherwise reacting to their environment, which, at shows, can be a huge problem for some horses.

So when it comes to scores, losing a point for btv and on the forehand may result in a better score than losing two or more points for disobediences that result in hollowing, getting stuck, or any number of evasions that can so much more easily happen with a collected horse.

IMO, it’s a sad state of affairs when a tense, rushy, hot horse who does most of a test without ever getting off the forehand can get higher scores than a calm, forward, straight horse who does a test that more closely aligns with the actual rules.

[AZ_TD]

Recommend auditing a USDF L judging program to have a better understanding of the basics and criteria for judging dressage horses.

[lorilu]

@AZ TD

Recommend auditing a USDF L judging program to have a better understanding of the basics and criteria for judging dressage horses.

sigh. havent we suggested this MANY times?

[lorilu]

Also I would suggest that some of those videos are stallions. Be sure you are not confusing a stallion’s crest for the vertebra.

[alibi_18]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

Which FEI rider and horse do you like then?

[pluvinel]

@AZ TD

Recommend auditing a USDF L judging program to have a better understanding of the basics and criteria for judging dressage horses.

I have.

Three times (maybe I’m a slow learner)…and was a 2nd Level demo rider once.

It was a while ago and auditors were allowed to ask questions. I naively asked about BTV in a video.

I asked…for understanding and clarification…in an appropriate tone of voice… how that aspect of the the movement would be judged.

The instructor flat out said, “The horse is not behind the vertical.”

Well, that shut down any further discussion.

But I guarantee you, I still have my driver’s license ergo I am not blind…the horse was BTV.

It would have been easy to rewind the video for discussion and clarification about what the guidance for judging was. The instructors just didn’t want to address the issue.

At breaks, in talking with the real L-Candidates, they appreciated the question as they were too afraid to ask any “pesky questions” lest they get cross-ways with the instructors and thus fail the course.

That was in my experience…YMMV.

[Manni01]

@joiedevie99

IMHO, judge’s have mostly stopped treating it as a mortal sin. That doesn’t mean it’s not a fault - but it’s maybe .5 or 1 point rather than an automatic 5.

IMHO, poll as the highest point is the ideal - the end goal. It isn’t necessarily something we strive for every minute of every ride. Heck, I intentionally drop the poll on one of mine in the show ring before the pirouette work. It’s a work in progress - and it helps him stay through and over his back.

Thank you for this very helpful post!!! I really like it!

And I would recommend the OP to join the FB group Correct schooling Dressage. There is a bashing thread here somewhere , usually there are very helpful people there…

[alibi_18]

@pluvinel And I will ask you as well, which rider and horse do you like?
And … you audited 3 times and been a demo rider and naively asked that question only once?

Unrelated to the question.

I believe it is also important to remind people that the article 401 is not limited to the poll.
It talks about the horse as a whole.

[pluvinel]

@alibi_18

@pluvinel And I will ask you as well, which rider and horse do you like?
And … you audited 3 times and been a demo rider and naively asked that question only once?

Unrelated to the question.

I believe it is also important to remind people that the article 401 is not limited to the poll.
It talks about the horse as a whole.

I asked about a specific video…it was the first time I had seen that particular ride.

I don’t ask questions just to be provocative in that sort of setting.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

I know there is an ideal. And there’s the real.
Dressage is about excellence, not perfection.

This isnt about tearing a particular horse and rider apart.

All of the top riders I watched rode BTV. Some very slightly, none curled to the chest. In every other respect the horses looked through, working from behind.

None looked uncomfortable, or constrained .

I wonder if there is some kind of conformational difference that makes it more difficult for WBs to flex at the poll.

Or it may be training.

I’m sure there were other threads, but none current.

FtR, my current favorite rider is Laura Graves, with CDJ a close second.

For me, the question is can the horse be BTV and still be truly in connection , through , working over his back, even if the poll is not the highest point?

It is not so much about judging, we all have our opinions on that, but dressage theory which i am very much interested in.

[SuzieQNutter]

As someone said above. I was taught that the poll must be the highest, however with a cresty stallion the crest will be higher than the poll.

[skydy]

@lorilu

Also I would suggest that some of those videos are stallions. Be sure you are not confusing a stallion’s crest for the vertebra.

That’s a common mistake when people are commenting on videos and fixating on head position. A large crest, and sometimes the musculature of the neck, can be misleading.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

We’ve got to stop meeting like this .

That is true. That is why I posed the question.
It isnt just the head. These horses are BTV.

I watched a sale video of a 4 year old being schooled. (I am trying to educate my eye as to what is the correct way of moving as opposed to what looks pretty, or flashy. )

The horse was a gelding who seemed to be where he was supposed to be for his age. The schooling was walk, trot, canter in working gaits.
He tended to want to curl and stay BTV
The rider did notice and did try to correct him. But his poll never was the highest point.
His gaits seemed correct. He never seemed to rush, .
I’m not expecting for a 4 year old to look like at FEI horse, but all the European videos I looked at, the horses tended to be BTV. None were way overbent.

It did not appear to be evasions, most of the riders were excellent and were not heavy handed, crank and spank types

I’ll have to see if I can find videos from Olympic games before the eighties and compare to modern day games.

[SuzieQNutter]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

We’ve got to stop meeting like this .

I’ll have to see if I can find videos from Olympic games before the eighties and compare to modern day games.

Good luck. You will need to google it or find a dedicated DVD for dressage. We once took out a DVD for the Olympic Games. I kid you not, the only bit of dressage on it was the last 3 canter strides. Halt, salute and leave the arena on a loose rein.

[pluvinel]

Google is your friend…

38 minutes of the 1964 Olympics dressage
https://youtu.be/aIeAHzG3mi4

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Thanks to both of you.

[lorilu]

@skydy

That’s a common mistake when people are commenting on videos and fixating on head position. A large crest, and sometimes the musculature of the neck, can be misleading.

yes. It’s important to see where the hind legs are - under, or out the back.