Diesel vs gas

[SusanO]

So any of you that switched from diesel to gas engine or vice versa - did you notice a large difference in towing power?

When I went from my gas truck to a turbo-charged diesel I sure got a whole lot more power but I was comparing a 20+ year truck to one that was less than 3 years old. The diesel is great - when it feels like working - and I am considering that I bought a used lemon and need to bite the bullet, get rid of it and buy a new truck :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:.

The problem with buying used, especially a used work truck, is that you don’t know how well the truck was maintained before you got it. Even with Car Fax and a thorough pre-purchase vetting you can buy a truck with lots of issues that hit about a year or two down the road. I only put on 2-3 thousand miles a year on my truck and I keep it serviced religiously but I am having lots of problems with this one at 70,000 miles. Not to mention a lot of my problems seem to be related to that damn diesel exhaust $$$$$$ystem.

So I am thinking about new - AUGH!!! And trying to decide if the $10 k premium for diesel is worth it. I do have hills when I am hauling to the vet ( every 6 week trip ) but no mountains. I just don’t trust the truck I have and it is a HUGE problem to be stuck on the side of the road hauling horses. I don’t want to do that!

[Narleta]

I’ve had both and found no major difference. I would check the engine specs of the trucks you are comparing to see the difference in towing capacity. I used to love diesel but now we pay more for it than gas.

[clanter]

I only put on 2-3 thousand miles a year on my truck

3000 miles at 10MPG is 300 galllons for gas
vs.
3000 miles at 20MPG is 150 gallons for diesel

if the fuel cost is $4/gal that is only $600 per year …nearly 17 years to pay for the up-charge of the diesel engine

biggest gas engine you can get…not an ecoboost but a real engine

[SusanO]

So what is a real engine in the Ford 250’s, Chevrolet, Dodge Ramms? I am not trying to save money on fuel - I just want to pull the hills with plenty of power.

[clanter]

Engines such as the Ford ecoboost use a lot of extra parts to make the horsepower out a small displacement engine such as variable valve timing making the engines more complex

here is a YouTube video by Scotty that explains it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkYS6mpwiSM

But the larger V8 gas engines are usually make the horsepower by much less complex methods

[ReSomething]

Chevy’s largest in the 1500 series is a 6.2. I think they have a 6.8 in the 2500hd. Still smaller than the 7.3 power stroke in the 20 year old ford that we sold off. We bought a brand new 5.3 gas chevy for the same reasons as op, and it gets up and goes without spinning out too much. Tows the small things with no problems, I would use it for moving our stock trailer with horses around the county, maybe not up a mountain or for a long trip

[cutter99]

I had a ‘97 Dodge Ram 2500 with a 360 gas engine, and pulled a 4 gooseneck horse trailer loaded with anywhere from 1 to 4 horses. When the wind was blowing the right direction and I was going down hill, I might have gotten 8 mpg, but averaged closer to 6 mpg. Power was okay but not great.

Next truck was an ‘01 Ford F350 with the legendary 7.3 diesel engine. Depending on what trailer I was pulling, got anywhere between 11-15 mpg. TONS of torque, and could glide up mountains with no issues for the most part, but learned not to get stuck behind slow moving tractor trailers at the bottom of the mountain.

Am now driving ‘16 RAM 3500 cab and chassis with an aluminum flatbed and a 6.7 Cummins diesel. Best truck for towing yet- handles everything with ease, not matter what I am pulling. Fuel mileage has ranged from 11-15 mpg.

In the end, it can come down to personal preference. I do a fair amount of mountainous towing, and I prefer the torque and power of the diesel. I also tend to keep my vehicles for long periods of time- current car 15 years and last truck 15 years. When I sold the truck I got almost half of what I paid for it new, and it was 15 years old. I also live in a state where diesel and gas are not that far off in price, so there is not a huge difference where that is concerned.

[wsmoak]

I have an F250 diesel now, and had two Dodge Cummins 2500’s before that. This will be my last diesel truck.

My next truck is going to be a plain white “work truck” with a flatbed and a gas engine.

The newer diesels are too complicated, especially with the emissions changes – and don’t just compare the cost of fuel, you also have to feed them DEF (exhaust fluid) which is not cheap.

Personally I do not haul enough to make the tradeoffs (more power? longer engine life?) worth it.

[clanter]

if I were buying new the one I would look at is the new Ford 7.3 Liter GASOLINE engine …it is said to be old school. It is naturally aspirated—meaning that it doesn’t have a supercharger or turbocharger.

It is designed for heavy haul and commercial applications… will be available in the 2020 F250 and larger trucks

https://www.popularmechanics.com/car…gas-v8-engine/

https://www.tfltruck.com/2019/02/how-much-power-will-fords-new-7-3l-v8-make-over-506-lb-ft-of-torque/

[Guilherme]

There are two questions, here, Economics and Operational Capability.

On the latter, the diesel has better low end torque that the gas engine and will likely get better mileage with fewer “add on” systems. Better mileage means fewer fuel stops. Simpler engines means few days in the shop. Etc.

Regarding Economics, the question is more complex. A big, gas engine like a Ford V-10, will give you single digit mpgs pulling anything. We had '99 Chevy K3500 gas (don’t remember the size but they don’t make it any more) that delivered 7 mpg towing if we were going downwind and down hill. With a 34 gallon fuel tank long trips were LONG. But while fuel costs were high, maintenance costs were less so. Oil changes, filters, and other routine things were less money than for a comparable diesel. There was a BIG premium paid for the diesel, so there was that cost to be amortized. Some claim “diesels run forever” while you’ll likely need a rebuild on a big gas engine around the 150,000 mile point. The rebuild number is probably close in most cases; but light diesels in light trucks (and all one ton pickups are “light trucks”) are not Freightliners and they are NOT going to go a million miles between overhauls. For medium duty diesels the B-50 number (the point at which there is 50% chance of a major engine component failure) is 300,000 miles. The engines in this class of truck are a LOT heavier than anything in a one-ton so it’s likely that their number is significantly lower. I’ve tried researching it a couple of times and could find nothing definitive. Consumers Union does have numbers for half ton trucks, but anything above that they consider “commercial” and don’t test or maintain statistics for it. The manufacturers likely know that number but never advertise it. That suggests to me that it’s not that high. If it were it would be a major selling point.

One point in favor of the pre-2010 diesels (the year the DEF system was mandated, IIRC) is that they hold their resale value in spades. My 2008 Chevy 3500HD right now stands at about 50% of it’s initial sticker price. It’s low miles (under 100,000) but even the higher mileage vehicles are doing better than the post-2010 models. This was true for along time for the Fords with the 7.3L diesel for a long time, also. Those trucks are now quite long in the tooth so I don’t know if they still have that premium resale value.

To do the job right you have to get out your yellow pad and do a detailed analysis of the economics of ownership. This has to include the direct and indirect costs of ownership (mileage, maintenance costs, depreciation, etc.) as well as the “administrative” costs like insurance (higher value vehicles cost more to cover than lower ones), interest on loans (they cost more to buy), taxes and registration fees (some states consider them “commercial” and charge accordingly). etc.

Put another way, relative fuel economy is just a tiny sliver of the “issues pie.”

G.

ETA: Two changes to the above.

First, mileage is 105,000+

Second, private party value is 60% of sticker; trade in is 50% of sticker.

[clanter]

@Guilherme

One point in favor of the pre-2010 diesels (the year the DEF system was mandated, IIRC) is that they hold their resale value in spades.

G.

I think some of the Ford owners who got those 6.0L diesels after the 7.3 would use the spades to bury those trucks

[tabula_rashah]

I would say part of your problems with the diesel is that it’s sitting so much. They aren’t designed to do that. While I love my diesels and you couldn’t pry them from my cold, dead hands , I would go with gas in your situation.

[DinkyDonk]

When I replaced my first truck, a 1993 K1500 Silverado in 2014, I got a new GMC 2500 HD gas guzzler “work truck” with the full size back seat. Basic white truck, vinyl flooring, 8’ bed, 4WD shifter still on the floor, 410 rear axle for towing. Plain, functional, and it’s only used for towing (hay and 2 horse bp) and feed store runs. I too only put 2000-3000 miles a year on it; I love all 22’ of it even though I can’t take it to the grocery store (parking spots too small, lanes too narrow) and I have to stand on a short ladder to wash it. It goes up hills in altitude with a full load of hay, and you don’t even realize you have a trailer behind you. My old truck, with 1 horse in the 2 horse bp, struggled on the interstate–couldn’t get it over 55 mph and I felt so, so vulnerable in it with all the semi tractor traffic in my area.

[WBmare]

I have a Silverado 2500 gas. It’s a V8. I love it. It tows my 2 horse bp great. You don’t even know the trailer is there. Now I have never owned a diesel so I can’t really compare the two, but I am happy with mine.

[Unfforgettable]

I recently replaced my 5.3 2012 GMC 1/2 ton with a 2019 Ram 1/2 ton, 5.7 hemi. There is no contest between the two as to which tows better. While the GMC did well enough, the Ram is far superior. I don’t even know I’ve got a trailer on…whether it’s my 2 horse Hawk or a 21 foot flatbed with an excavator. My dog truck is a 2004 Chevy 2500 diesel, and when it’s time to replace it, I’ll be going back to gas.

[specifiedcupcake]

Diesel engines run better for longer typically because the power is generated the entirety of the engine stroke, so they don’t wear as fast. It’s a good option if it’s something you want to keep for years and years, but they do generally cost more to maintain (but I also got oil changes half as often?). I liked my Ram Ecodiesel, compared to my friends’ F-150’s and similar sized pickups I got like double the mpg’s. Most of the issues I had were electrical, but that’s got naught to do with fuel type.

[FatCatFarm]

We had a Chevy Silverado 2500 LS for 16 years, it was 18 years old when we sold it and still got very decent money for it. We did have to replace the transmission on it around 100k miles but otherwise required no major repairs in all that time and we used the shit out of that truck. It stood up to the abuse and was still in pretty decent shape when we parted with it. My husband drove it as a daily commuter for a while, I towed 2 and 3 horse goose neck trailers with it and also moved 100 square bales of hay on a flatbed trailer with it, up and down hills. It got about 14-16 MPG and was a gas engine.

We sold it and bought a 2015 Ford F-250 Superduty XLT 4x4 which only gets between 9 and 10 MPG, but tows like a dream. I’ve had several old school people comment about gas engines being a lot less money to have, maintain and repair than diesels.

Currently we only use the truck to haul the horse trailer, hay or farm supplies, so are only putting about 3k miles on it a year. If you’re hauling a lot and long distances, the diesel will probably stand up to that abuse better than maybe the gas engine truck, but repairs are definitely more.

[ReSomething]

I had a lot of experience around ww2 surplus diesels, the Detroit 653, 453 and 6 v 53. Smelly, loud, leaked oil, very simple and ran forever. Didn’t require any electrical parts as they could be started with a compressed air starter, mechanical fuel pumps etc. Our 7.3 was a wonderful power plant, but the rest of the vehicle was a pita, and I seriously mistrust the options that are now required on new diesels. I’m not that thrilled about new gas engines and all things computerized either as I resent planned obsolescence/short term engineering.

[SusanO]

OK it is the diesel exhaust system - Ford place just doesn’t know exactly what. This is part two of this problem. Supposedly fixed in February. Do any of the rest of you have problems with this with your later model diesels? I don’t know if I am having problems with this because I am the second owner and the first owner didn’t maintain the truck well but I have had this truck two and a half years.

OR - I only drive the truck 3 or 4 thousand miles per year and it is sitting too long unused. But I haul to vet every 6-7 weeks and make trips out of state to buy hay. Almost all of my driving is interstate.

I am seriously looking into trading this truck in when it gets fixed. I don’t usually do this - my older Chevrolet truck is 24 years old and I have had it 22 years and it is still kicking. It is a gas engine and I never had these kinds of problems with it. Just trying to decide if buying another diesel is worth it and if I might have the same problem with a new one.

[Guilherme]

@SusanO

OK it is the diesel exhaust system - Ford place just doesn’t know exactly what. This is part two of this problem. Supposedly fixed in February. Do any of the rest of you have problems with this with your later model diesels? I don’t know if I am having problems with this because I am the second owner and the first owner didn’t maintain the truck well but I have had this truck two and a half years.

OR - I only drive the truck 3 or 4 thousand miles per year and it is sitting too long unused. But I haul to vet every 6-7 weeks and make trips out of state to buy hay. Almost all of my driving is interstate.

I am seriously looking into trading this truck in when it gets fixed. I don’t usually do this - my older Chevrolet truck is 24 years old and I have had it 22 years and it is still kicking. It is a gas engine and I never had these kinds of problems with it. Just trying to decide if buying another diesel is worth it and if I might have the same problem with a new one.

There are persistent rumors of serious problems with the DEF system which is Federally mandated. Rumors are rumors and hard information is not easy to find. The problems that are acknowledged lie in the sensors than control and monitor the system and in the injectors used to put the DEF fluid into the exhaust stream. Any system that adds on to another system will be a maintenance and cost burden that will be borne by somebody, in this case the owner of the vehicle.

I, too, use my truck sparingly given it’s cost of operation. But it does get driven at least every few days for something and each trip is usually in the 30 min. plus range as we live in the country and the nearest grocery store is 7 miles! The nearest major shopping area is 18 miles. So when it goes out the truck will be driven such that it fully comes to temperature and that takes care of any moisture that can accumulate in any part of the engine/transmission/drive train (which is also rife with the kind of sensors that give the DEF system its headaches). Moisture is the enemy of sensors. IMO that is something that diesel truck owners MUST do if they are going to avoid the small but annoying (and sometimes expensive) problems that can crop up.

So take your truck out a couple of times a week and drive it for 30 min. or so. I’m sure that there is some errand or task in your life where this is feasible. It will likely help reduce small problems and also burn up the diesel in your tank which, itself, has a “shelf life.” If you don’t drive very much get a good diesel fuel conditioner and use it. It can prevent problems from that part of the vehicle.

G.