Oh DEAR- surely if a member starts a discussion on this forum it doesn’t oblige them to try every suggestion? There is such a breadth of experience and knowledge here it is a pity to make it difficult to ask for opinions?
We all come with a bias- mine tends to make me dislike anecdotal evidence in favour of ‘scientific studies’, others have their own. Just sayin’, don’t wanna fight.
On another note- is there info available on a member’s profile that gives their background? Like J Lu’s PhD in physiology? Could be useful to understand their point of view.
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Again, I said my vet is not concerned with the bleaching she sees in the area. Posters on this thread talk about bleaching. The actual pasture analysis shows that the iron/zinc/copper balance in my region isn’t particularly “off” but you haven’t addressed the actual numbers. You seem very resistant to that fact.
I asked you about those numbers because you suggested the supplement. I wanted to verify your numbers to verify what you consider a half-dose. I’m not sure what is so difficult about providing information on products you suggest…
The numbers on my spreadsheet represent what my horse is actually eating. Obviously my horse doesn’t see the spreadsheet because he doesn’t have a computer or access to the internet, but if that is what he’s eating and “not responding” in your opinion, feeding more of one or two element likely won’t fix the issue. Snarky additional comment about horses being “individuals” or adding strange summary adjectives (“weird”, “how strange”) don’t help your arguments and make you come across as rude and defensive.
And yet you still miss the point of my threads. I’m very much looking for individual experience, but you seem very upset that I’m not right now following YOUR individual advice. You don’t engage in discussion, you just insult me for not following your advice. Thanks so much for your input. I think you’ve posted the extent of your knowledge on the subject.
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Thank you. I’m interested in factual information and even anecdotal information that I can link to factual information. I’m NOT going to experiment on my horse, and am very reluctant to spend money on unproven supplements or unneeded supplements. Like I said, I’m not interested in my horse’s coat color IF it is not associated with a physiological issue. I spend enough money on an excellent lifestyle, pasture situation, food intake, arena footing, farrier, trainer, and vet for my horse. As a scientist, I’m going to research pretty much everything for beneficial, placebo and adverse effects before I administer it to my horse. I think that protects my horse and my wallet.
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I for one am very interested in what you come up with. I am a big proponent of good nutrition and a healthy lifestyle, but I don’t jump on the bandwagon of feeding a lot of supplements. There seems to be a mindset that meeting the RDA is “bare minimum” and feeding more is better, with both people and animals.
I have one that in late winter/spring was nuts with rain rot and scratches, but that has gone away without me making any diet changes, and it’s still raining. The only thing I’ve changed is the amount of fly spray I’ve used since the bugs have gotten worse as the weather warmed.
You certainly don’t have to take my recommendations at all. But when you post asking about diet for a bleaching horse and then say with certainty that there’s nothing about his diet that could possibly relate to his bleaching, it’s a little confusing.
If your vet is infallible and you trust her explicitly, why does this thread and the other one exist?
It is strange that you’re so sure you have a totally complete picture of your horse’s needs when a) horses are not identical b) there is SO MUCH we don’t know about equine nutrition and c) you don’t even bother to test his diet for a full 1/3rd of the year.
Shrug. Cheap, easy, benign if you’re wrong seems simple to me. But I’ll just go sit over here with my horses that don’t bleach in the sun (but have, in the past, when their copper was out of whack) :lol: :lol:
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I just started this per your suggestion on the scratches thread. I know too much copper can be toxic, hense the 1/2 dose.
I am not an equine nutritionist, but it has always been my understanding that total copper should be less than total zinc. A quick google search came up with a 1:3 ratio for copper:zinc.
I should have clarified. 1/2 scoop of Uckele copper is 155mg and 1/2 scoop of Uckele zinc is 335 mg so not quite a 1:3 but close enough.
I’ve tryed adding uckele poly cooper and zinc for bleaching out coats, scratches issues.
I used a copper additive for an entirely different reason. I had a mare that was a ‘barn banger’ when she was in season. Old farrier told me they’d add copper pennies to the water for that. Good luck finding solid copper pennies. I bought some copper, pipe sleeves and dropped them in her water barrel. It worked like a charm. The difference was night and day. (sun bleaching pun intended). I had to buy new pipe sleeves occasionally. The problem was solved.
My Mom showed at halter. All the show horses were out of the sun during the day. They all sun bleached. The blacks, the bays, the chestnuts and the greys’ manes and tails turn yellowish.
Sounds like your concern isn’t whether or not your horse bleaches - but, whether or not there is a nutritional deficit that could cause other problems. If so, a blood test should tell you that. After reading this whole thread, I don’t remember if you’ve already had one taken. Let us know how it turns out.
Thanks! Good point. When he sheds in the late fall, the new hair comes in really dark. That could support your hypothesis. He’s always been on some ratio of balancer/grain. We now have 600+ bales of the winter hay (should last us), and I plan to test core samples along with more grass samples this fall. The shipping costs more than the tests, so why not add on! (The BO will pay for it and the barn trainer has an official “corer” thingy). Last year, we got bales from various places/sources (for reasons). All of these bales come from a pretty local farm. We’re also hoping the lime application (after the soil analysis) extents the “life” of pasture growth.
I haven’t tested the blood. What tests do you do? A basic chem screen or specific tests? If you don’t mind my asking, how much does it cost? Do you do supplementation based on your blood results? Do you have your supplements compounded based on the results or do you use a commercial product but at different concentrations?
I ask about the cost because I’m looking at a couple of hundred dollars to consult an equine nutritionist.
Thanks for your input and advice, @findeight . I’ve encountered others who also think that there is some degree of bleaching in a horse living out 24/7 with fly spray and sweat. We keep the fans on in the run-ins, but they don’t always “run-in” until it’s really hot.
@Palm Beach, I’ll let you know what I come up with and what the nutritionist says. I’d rather not feed supplements unless it is necessary for health. The dietary intake analysis suggests he meets or exceeds RDA, and his lifestyle, feed and pasture (MUCH effort is put into the pasture) are both superlative for a horse.
Biting flies are terrible this hear even though we had a hard frost. This is the first year I’ve pulled ticks off my horse.
@TCA Arabians , yep, I’m mostly interested in health concerns, not if he bleaches. I am interested in if these are mutually exclusive.
I think it ends up being around $350-400 per set (I’ve pretty much stopped looking at my vet bills now) but I don’t think you’d need the ACTH, insulin, cortisol, glucose if you don’t have any concerns about IR etc. I think these are the pricier ones. Your vet should be able to give you a really good idea on cost for the tests.
You need to get extra vials drawn and mine get sent away to a University for the analysis. The results are not from a normal blood panel that the vet clinic would do. I think we ask for electrolyte panel, trace mineral panel (trace elements, serum), Vit E, Magnesium. These are all separate tests.
Electrolyte panel is: sodium, potassium, chloride and the Na:K ratio
Trace mineral panel is: manganese, iron, cobalt, copper, zinc, selenium, molybdenum
And the Vit E and magnesium are single, separate tests.
We (my vet and I) have decided on supplementation based on the results. I found supplements I could buy for now until he stabilized a bit more and then am considering having a company compound a complete solution based on his needs. His results were quite unusual.
I found it to be really worth the money and was very surprised at the differences between the mare and gelding. I’m going to get my old guy tested too if I ever get a “quiet” month from vet visits…
I think I answered everything. 
The costs for serum trace mineral screening will vary across laboratories and individual practitioners. At most labs the testing is around $50-75 depending on what tests are run. Then your vet also has to charge for shipping the sample and likely some other fees that reflect their time for result interpretation. An example of a lab that does a lot of this type of testing is Michigan State https://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/ClientEducation/MKTG.CARD.MINERALZONE.001.PDF
I believe the state vet diagnostic lab in NC no longer does their own toxicology and sends out to a different lab.
The correlation between serum levels of minerals and the overall status in the body varies by mineral, and also depends on appropriate collection and sample handling. Sometimes normal serum status doesn’t guarantee normal tissue levels etc, so you do need to be cautious with interpretations. There is also limited research in horses, so trying to always be super evidence-based can be frustrating.
I balanced my own horse’s ration based on forage analysis (all hay she consumes is from the pastures on the farm she also eats, so I have it pretty easy). Even when everything looked good on paper, including a custom supplement to fill gaps, she has had low serum zinc in the past. When I finally increased her zinc enough, there was an improvement in hoof quality, even though she should have been getting enough zinc before and ratios were within range. Her forage is very high in manganese so my hypothesis is that it affected zn absorption more than expected. Of course this is just an anecdote, and it is possible to drive yourself crazy with this stuff! Good luck, and it is helpful to have someone guiding you who is a trained nutritionist.
Thank you so much for explaining this! My friend ended up having her supplements compounded, I can ask her about that if you’re interested.
Thank you!!! Yes, I note briefly that NC state has limited nutritional analysis and “extension” at the moment. My vet has a relationship with NC State and I can inquire about this. Yea, I am super evidence based and can be quite frustrated. Thanks for recognizing that!!! I so appreciate that!
Unfortunetly, Manganese is not quantified by Equi-Analytical. I had been supplementing Zinc (stopped after the analysis) and continue with manganese. My farrier (who is an excellent farrier, recognized in my area) think his hooves look fine. I ask him at every shoeing and he gives a detailed answer.
He currently has a 5:1 zinc:Cu ratio based on my analysis. I inquired with some equine independent nutritional companies, will hire one of them.
