Diet for a horse, one that bleaches

[J-Lu]

OK, I’m starting a new thread for anyone who wants to discuss diets and nutrition.

My horse is a “dark brown”, dark bay horse who bleaches in the summer. He lives in his own 1+acre pasture 24/7, but there are many horses on the property. He used to eat Nutrena Pro Force Fuel fed to the label, but has been progressively cut back because his metabolism has slowed considerably (he’s 9 now). That has been progressively replaced with Performance Adult balancer, and he also has been getting some Nutrena boost and vit supplements recently. His pasture is very well maintained, mowed, weeds are controlled. I dropped off soil samples for analysis yesterday, we will lime as appropriate. Horses get various hay for maybe 4 winter months/year (generally local, plus I supplement with alfalfa), but are on pasture (fescue, coastal bermuda, crab grass, other) a good 8 months.

I analyzed the grain and supplements, and had the pasture analyzed. Iron is at 516 mg/day, Cu is at 165 mg/day, Zinc at 925.8 mg/day, I have been giving Magnesium, and that wasn’t included in the pasture analysis. So the Fe/Zn/Cu ratio is about 3.14 : 5.6 : 1. The Merck veterinary manual puts these numbers above their minimum, and they don’t seem far from recommended ratios. The Ca is 32.8 min, 54.6 max with P at 31.7 min, all at or above recommendations. That ratio seems acceptable, and is made acceptable with the balancer.

Does anyone have comments about this diet? Concerns? I plan to involve an equine nutritionist, but would love to know your thoughts. I am open to suggestions, but not open to just throwing supplements at my horse because they are advertised to stop bleaching, etc. There are consequences to over-supplementation of vits and minerals, and I don’t want to risk “going there” due to marketing. I am looking for the “why” and am especially interested if you have a solid reason for your recommendations. Also, just ask if you have a question regarding any aspect of his care or diet analysis.

Thanks!

[CFFarm]

How about a fly sheet to help with the bleaching. Or keeping him in during the day and out at night. (I personally like mine out 24/7 and don’t care about bleaching as I never did halter horses).

Like people every horse is an individual and has different diet requirements so I can’t comment on that.

[Snowdenfarm]

I balance my hay/feed and while I saw a difference in the density and color of their hooves when I first started years ago, their coats still bleach out. In my experience, it is the combination of sweat and sun that does it – and it doesn’t take a lot of either.

[Palm_Beach]

I don’t know if there is anything you can feed that really works when a horse is out all day. I googled it, and it appears that melanin production is increased in response to UV rays. In skin cells, which are alive, this makes skin darken. Also, as skin cells die, they are quickly replaced and you don’t really notice it. Hair cells are dead, so no melanin production, and therefore hair gets lightened, but since it’s a whole strand, it stays bleached until it falls out and a new one grows in.

https://www.popsci.com/why-does-sunlight-lighten-hair-but-darken-skin

[J-Lu]

@CFFarm

How about a fly sheet to help with the bleaching. Or keeping him in during the day and out at night. (I personally like mine out 24/7 and don’t care about bleaching as I never did halter horses).

Like people every horse is an individual and has different diet requirements so I can’t comment on that.

He didn’t bleach when I had him in at night, and I actually don’t care if he bleaches (not concerned about the color change). I’m thinking about this from a health care point of view - like if he’s missing something. He very much prefers to be out even though he was raised in a half-day in, half-day out situation.

ETA: it is so incredibly humid here in NC, I have a fly sheet but worry about him sweating so much that I don’t use it. Area people/trainers don’t use fly sheets often here.

[J-Lu]

@Palm Beach

I don’t know if there is anything you can feed that really works when a horse is out all day. I googled it, and it appears that melanin production is increased in response to UV rays. In skin cells, which are alive, this makes skin darken. Also, as skin cells die, they are quickly replaced and you don’t really notice it. Hair cells are dead, so no melanin production, and therefore hair gets lightened, but since it’s a whole strand, it stays bleached until it falls out and a new one grows in.

https://www.popsci.com/why-does-sunlight-lighten-hair-but-darken-skin

Thanks for that link! I take note that his black points don’t bleach, just the “bay” part. Except where his mane covers.

I had been feeding supplementary zinc but stopped when I got these numbers because he’s clearly getting enough of that. I have a friend who lives a few hours north in a high Fe area and ended up purchasing compounded Cu and Zinc on the advice of a nutritionist, but her pasture had quite different numbers than mine (her horses also live out on pasture 24/7 and get minimal grain). I’m not as much interested in the coat color as much as whether he’s low on nutrients. If he has a problem processing nutrients, that’s likely due to a physiological issue that may not be resolved by just adding more. Just adding more can throw other things out of whack.

I won’t get the soil results until early July. Our extension sends them out once a month. I’ll test the pH next week, though.

I’m happy to send my excel spreadsheet to anyone who wants to take a look. It comprises the feed and pasture analysis.

[J-Lu]

@Snowdenfarm

I balance my hay/feed and while I saw a difference in the density and color of their hooves when I first started years ago, their coats still bleach out. In my experience, it is the combination of sweat and sun that does it – and it doesn’t take a lot of either.

Thanks for your input. The horses definitely sweat a lot here when it’s hot, and streaks of lost minerals are really evident on the fur. He has a shelter with a fan, but he’s still covered with sweat. I’ve been farm sitting for the last week and have really paid attention to his sweating (everyone is sweating, we had a heat index of 110 degrees F). I have the luxury of hosing daily now, but normally don’t.

[Simkie]

@J-Lu

I’m thinking about this from a health care point of view - like if he’s missing something.

Yup. Copper.

[walkinthewalk]

Copper can’t be added without adding zinc. They have to be in correct ratio to each other:)

[J-Lu]

@Simkie

Yup. Copper.

So, how much would you add given the diet? What are your ratios with zinc and iron? Thanks for your help.

Do you think his copper intake is too low given the numbers? Why? Thanks!

[Simkie]

@J-Lu

So, how much would you add given the diet? What are your ratios with zinc and iron? Thanks for your help.

Do you think his copper intake is too low given the numbers? Why? Thanks!

A half dose of poly copper and a half dose of poly zinc from either Uckele or Horsetech. You can mix them 1:1 (by volume, not weight) and then just feed one scoop.

As to why…

Perhaps he has a higher biological need for copper than “average”

Perhaps he is seeking out iron accumulator plants in the pasture and thinks they’re delicious

Perhaps there is something in his microbiome that is binding or consuming copper, or making the iron he consumes more biologically available

Unless you’re keeping a horse in laboratory conditions, it’s hard to say what he’s actually getting. Even though you’ve analyzed the pasture (the grasses? not just the soil?) you’re not following him around analyzing everything that goes into his mouth, and even the best pasture isn’t 100% homogeneous. Horses also aren’t IDENTICAL. They’re not stamped out with the nutritional guidelines embedded. There are outliers. Maybe he just needs more. I just need more magnesium than my husband…our diets are very similar, but if I don’t take additional magnesium, I get occipital migraines. Why? Who knows. I just need more.

But my personal favorite thing to “blame” when something like this comes up is the microbiome. We’re just now beginning to understand how incredibly important it is in people. We can assume is it equally (perhaps more…) important in equines, but there is nearly zero known. If you wanted to toss some darts at the board and were game for experimentation, a series of fecal transplants from a similar but non bleaching horse could be interesting. Although who knows if he would be able to maintain that particular mix of bacteria on his own, so repeated transplant may be required.

It’s easier, cheaper, and less invasive to just give him a little more copper and zinc. Note you’re probably not going to see results on the bleaching until next summer (if he only bleaches in the summer, anyway.) You should see an improvement in his weird skin stuff sooner.

[demidq]

I would like to stress that, as Palm Beach and Simkie said, the horse hair is dead so the colour won’t change until the new coat comes in with the next shed. It won’t make any difference now if you play around with various mineral combinations and supplements. Horse hair bleaches in the sun in the same way as human hair, only way to prevent it is no sun, particularly for dark horses. Human hair grows continually, horse coat twice a year.
Also- many horse’s have seasonal differences in their coat colour regardless of sun, and winter coat can be darker than summer.
My understanding is that a copper deficiency causes much lighter hair colour around the eyes (like Donal Trump’s pale specs from his eye protectors), and it has to be very severe before the overall colour changes. I may have missed it, but have you spoken to your vet about drawing blood to see if the horse is deficient?
A word of caution- several years ago I used a supplement to try and darken my horse’s coat (or to be more accurate, to keep her dapples!). The main ingredient was paprika, and I fed according to directions. Horse had a bad reaction and developed liver problems which the vet said could very well have been the high dose of paprika. Fortunately she recovered just fine. It may have been a total coincidence, but I have since been very cautious of supplementing unless there is a medical/nutritional need. I discuss these with vet and local vet school nutritionist.

[Simkie]

@demidq

My understanding is that a copper deficiency causes much lighter hair colour around the eyes (like Donal Trump’s pale specs from his eye protectors), and it has to be very severe before the overall colour changes. I may have missed it, but have you spoken to your vet about drawing blood to see if the horse is deficient?

While really profound copper deficiency may cause vitiligo (like this) minor deficiency or just an out of whack Fe:Cu:Zn balance often causes sun bleaching. Horses use the copper to build the color in the hair follicle.

Blood testing is also not very useful. Free circulating values aren’t very indicative of cellular levels. There’s a reason why a bone marrow aspirate is what it takes to definitively diagnose in people.

[demidq]

That is very interesting, Simkie. I must check with our hospital lab. As a physician, I have never heard that serum copper testing is not accurate. I don’t think I have ever had a patient require a bone marrow aspirate to diagnose copper deficiency, or had it suggested by consultants.
I have heard of patients being investigated for unusual anemia or low white blood cell count and having copper deficiency diagnosed on the bone marrow biopsy. In those cases serum levels confirmed the low copper.
In humans, the most common cause of copper deficiency is high zinc levels, especially after GI surgery where zinc is preferentially absorbed. It can also occur if a patient has been taking large amounts of extra zinc as a supplement. The treatment in these cases is to stop the zinc and give copper alone until the lab values are normal and symptoms have resolved. Follow-up is vital to monitor long term!
I (obviously!) don’t deal with horse health, and only think about what similarities there may be.
My approach to nutrition is not to micromanage. Good feeds are supplemented with vitamins, mineral, and trace elements. If horse is receiving minimal or no commercial feed, a ration balancer is probably needed. Maybe I am just lazy, prefer the experts do the work. It is certainly reasonable to check hay to make sure of nutritional quality and soil to see if there is anything out of whack.

This approach is of course NOT reasonable if horse is ill and when my mare was convalescent after a bad gut infection last year I had LONG talks with the vet and the nutritionist at the vet hospital about how to feed while she was recovering- they were very patient!

I apologise- I hope I haven’t highjacked the original post.

[J-Lu]

Thank you.

Demiq, I’m well aware of skin and hair growth, as a Ph.D. physiologist. The zinc is high, but apparently within normal range. I’ve already cut the zinc supplements. Thanks for adding your experience and knowledge, it certainly contributes to, not hijacks, the thread. I have consulted my vet (who thinks the levels are fine and he is healthy), and plan to consult a nutritionist on my current analysis. He has always been on quality feeds in addition to pasture. I’ll check into who we have at NC State.

Simkie, can you suggest numbers rather than a “half dose”? What does a half dose add? The grasses in the pasture and on the property are mainly made of five varieties with a few interlopers, and there’s not much more variation. I mentioned that the pastures are well maintained , on top of that the species are known. I’m actually well aware of the species my horse prefers/is exposed to and so is the barn owner. That’s obvious for every horse in how they graze their pasture. My sample was from 20 spots in the pasture at the height he grazes - we know what’s there because we have walked the pastures many, many times. We have that covered so, so much better than you think. I’m also very aware that horses are not identical. I understand the fecal transplant but will not be experimenting on my horse like that to see if he keeps his color since there are no obvious clinical symptoms and that would require a large expenditure of my money. The zinc levels are high already, aren’t they?

The skin issues are new this year, and are likely due to insects/arthropods. I pulled three ticks from this throatlach in the last couple of weeks, he previously had embedded ones only in his 'armpits" and inguinal area. Thanks!

[Palm_Beach]

I always thought sun bleach was normal. I have rugs in my house that bleached before I got replacement windows, my dog’s bed that is next to the slider is bleached on one side, and my own hair bleaches in the sun (turns an ugly shade of orange). Lots of stuff bleaches in the sun.

Just from personal observation, I think horse coat bleaching may be a bit genetic and determined by their coat color. I’ve seen lots of sun bleached dark bay/brown horses, but chestnuts and reddish bays don’t seem to bleach as much, or maybe it’s just not obvious. Anyone?

But heck, if you can eat something that keeps your naturally dark brown hair nice and dark let me know, I love to eat!

[Simkie]

@J-Lu

Thank you.

Demiq, I’m well aware of skin and hair growth, as a Ph.D. physiologist. The zinc is high, but apparently within normal range. I’ve already cut the zinc supplements. Thanks for adding your experience and knowledge, it certainly contributes to, not hijacks, the thread. I have consulted my vet (who thinks the levels are fine and he is healthy), and plan to consult a nutritionist on my current analysis. He has always been on quality feeds in addition to pasture. I’ll check into who we have at NC State.

Simkie, can you suggest numbers rather than a “half dose”? What does a half dose add? The grasses in the pasture and on the property are mainly made of five varieties with a few interlopers, and there’s not much more variation. I mentioned that the pastures are well maintained , on top of that the species are known. I’m actually well aware of the species my horse prefers/is exposed to and so is the barn owner. That’s obvious for every horse in how they graze their pasture. My sample was from 20 spots in the pasture at the height he grazes - we know what’s there because we have walked the pastures many, many times. We have that covered so, so much better than you think. I’m also very aware that horses are not identical. I understand the fecal transplant but will not be experimenting on my horse like that to see if he keeps his color since there are no obvious clinical symptoms and that would require a large expenditure of my money. The zinc levels are high already, aren’t they?

The skin issues are new this year, and are likely due to insects/arthropods. I pulled three ticks from this throatlach in the last couple of weeks, he previously had embedded ones only in his 'armpits" and inguinal area. Thanks!

A half dose of poly copper is 250 mg of elemental copper and a half dose of poly zinc is 625 mg of elemental zinc if you are using the horse tech products. But you could have looked that up :rolleyes:

You seem really oddly resistant to even the idea of supplementing and claim to understand that horses are not identical, but keep referencing the numbers on your spreadsheet and that it is sufficient. The horse seems to be saying you’re incorrect. The horse hasn’t read your spreadsheet. Have you tried telling him that he’s getting enough, and at the proper ratios, and shouldn’t be bleaching, or have these weird skin issues? Maybe you can convince him and he’ll knock it off.

I’ve had bleaching horses with weird skin issues. I supplemented a half dose of poly copper and poly zinc. They stopped bleaching. The skin issues went away. It was amazing! Like magic. One horse in my herd seems particularly sensitive on this front and she’s always the first one who pops with something weird when she’s not getting enough–this despite the fact that three of the four are fed identically and are otherwise very similar. It’s like she’s actually an individual, with her own specific needs. How strange.

This is easy and cheap and benign if you’re wrong. There’s a very good chance it will help. You’ve posted that a lot of horses in your area bleach, which seems to indicate there’s something off on the iron/zinc/copper balance in your region. Sounds like a slam dunk, and yet you refuse to even try. Weird.

I’m really not sure what you’re looking for with these threads if not for personal experiences from others who have had the same problems in their horses, and what has worked for them?

[findeight]

IME this is the worst time of year for sunbleaching. It’s the solstice, sun is at its zenith, Whether burning or bleaching it happens in dramatically less time, especially in the hours between about 10am and 2pm when it’s at its highest point with the most direct effect on skin and hair.

Had and been around horses for 50 years, they all bleached to some extent at this time of year. Keeping them inside or under shade during those mid day hours lessened the effect. Some coat colors show the bleaching worse, darker ones in particular, pink skin under white markings can sunburn and blister too.

I don’t think anything added to the diet will stop sunbleaching any more then it would stop sunburn in humans out at mid day with the sun at its most powerful position of the year.

We always kept the show horses in the shade as much as possible during the day from May to September for cosmetic reasons, The non show horses had shade if they wanted but could stay outside. Personally don’t like the summer sheets, can get itchy if they sweat under the edges and their manes and tails still bleach out.

Will say there’s pretty good indications that many fly spray products leave a residue that repels flies but enhances the effects of the sun on the coat.

[Jungle_Monkey]

“I have consulted my vet (who thinks the levels are fine and he is healthy), and plan to consult a nutritionist on my current analysis.”

What are the horses current levels from extra testing? If you don’t know what you are starting with how can you know that any numbers you calculate are sufficient for the horse?

I don’t want to get into the long story as to why but I’ve been testing my gelding every 8 weeks or so for EVERYTHING (ACTH, copper, zinc,magnesium, cortisol, etc etc) ,and decided to test the mare, same hay, say feed, similar supplementation until my geldings results…he started off very high for iron and she was just at the high end and they had pretty different results with regards to selenium, vit E and potassium.

My horses looked fantastic. Beautiful coats, good energy, happy, no bleaching…I had no idea what was up until something really horrible happened to the gelding.

[Heinz_57]

I realize this won’t help you currently, but it’s possible that he’s getting excess iron in the winter from the supplemental hay while the new hair coat is growing in? That could explain the currently “normal range” numbers, yet you still have bleaching issues; the hair was grown during a different period on a slightly different diet. If you have a consistent hay supply for that 4 month period, it probably wouldn’t hurt to test it once it’s in the barn and then supplement whatever additional zinc/copper is needed (if any) to keep him at consistent levels.

Just a thought.