A couple of weeks ago I had an interesting chat with my large animal vet. He had been perusing some of the recruiting ads from local small animal practices. Being old as dirt, he was surprised and disgusted to learn how many of the local practices now pay their vets on commission. His thought was, no wonder these guys want to run up $1500 worth of diagnostics on geriatric dogs. Bigger bill = bigger paycheck.
Please add pain meds to this list - many animals hide pain very well, so doing trials with medication can be the best determination of pain level.
I also strongly plead that you have Xrays done to diagnose the extent of joint dysplasia.
[QUOTE=mustangtrailrider;6098137]
Thank you very much all! I feel much better now! I just need to stand firm and stand my ground.
I have an American Bulldogge that I need to take to the vet and have his hip evaluated and see what is going on with him. I suspect hip dysplasia. He is a pound puppy and weighs 95 lbs! He is 3 years old and the neatest fellow I have ever had the pleasure of having in my life. Beyond a joint supplement, exercise, and weight control, I am not interested in pursuing treatment. He is active, happy, and loves life. I feel no need to treat it…he is otherwise happy. Until something needs to be done, I will leave him as is.
Rescues are the best. I have lost two in the last couple of years. Older Bassets that spent a lot of time at the vet’s office.a Unfortunately, despite a lot tests and treatments, I lost both of them. Now I am hesitant to put an animal through a lot of treatment when the outcome might be the same. I often wondered if Euthanasia would have been more humane.
Just ponderings. I have decent communications with my vets.
Thank you![/QUOTE]
A 3 yr old with hip displaysia, can have a very good outcome and quality of life with surgery. I understand having had a bad experience with older dogs, making you leery about more extensive treatment, but with the age of the dog, at least talk to your vet and maybe get a 2nd opinion if needed.
Mustangtrailrider-on the Dr Pol show (Nat’l Geographic Wild channel) they had a youngish dog with hip problems and they removed the top of the Femur (I think femur) and the dog was fine. This is a normal treatment, as opposed to a hip replacement surgery resembling human hip replacement (I was told that with dogs they usually only have to replace the worst hip, and the other is fine then-I don’t know if this is true or not).
Carp-that ad doesn’t surprise me at all, since I have the feeling that several vets I’ve been to seem to change after they become practice owners or the older vets retire. It’s a different philosophy that entails (in some cases) the proactive sales model of vet care from full spectrum food and supplement sales, to pushing tests and treatments for animals when there is no quality of life benefit. When my last boy was diagnosed with liver disease the vet said liver cancer was a strong possibility, and wanted to do all kinds of invasive tests like liver biopsy. I said no, since liver cancer is something I wouldn’t treat for myself, and this practice was big on chemo. I really want to know how you justify putting an animal that doesn’t understand why it’s get treatments that make it feel sick, just to extend it’s life of suffering? And in case of the liver biopsy-I said no because it seemed like more of a test for intellectual curiosity, than diagnostic, especially after I read the literature that said many liver diseases when a biopsy is done have bad bleeding. The dog lived two more years in good health, and when he wasn’t happy any longer I put him down.
And in some areas there just aren’t that many vet practice options. Many in the last area I lived in didn’t have good reputations, and I mostly stayed with the one practice I used because they also boarded in emergencies, and they had the best hours. You just had to watch them for extra ‘might as well as’ tests that I saw no point to. Like doing an EKG on a 12 year old dog-what did they think I would do if he had a heart murmur? Send him to the Mayo Clinic? Not happening. And I do regret I fed him Science diet for years, since after looking at ratings I don’t see any reason why the vet sold it except for profit.
Is this the dog you are referencing in your original post about difference of opinion with vet regarding euthasia?
3 years old is young. Do tell your vet why you aren’t interested in pursuing treatment. Be it money, time, prior bad experiences, philosophy, etc. Being honest will get you the best options. As the owner, you are allowed to euthanize. As a vet, they are obligated to show you alternatives (rescue groups, Care Credit financing for surgery, conservative management.)
What symptoms are you seeing? Sounds like he has not been to the vet yet -for this- so I’m not sure why you say the vet differs in opinion? Don’t know the Bassets’ health problems but a 3yo with dysplasia -shame on the breeders!! :mad:- is a different animal.
- wants to know what’s wrong out of intellectual curiousity/further educating themselves
I’ve encountered this situation. Asking a lot of pointed questions about what new options the proposed “diagnostics” would open up quickly revealed that they wouldn’t do anything for the dog but might end up helping the vet get a publication.
So “question” away is my suggestion. And worry about your dog, not the vet’s feelings. And there is nothing wrong with getting a second opinion, and going home to do research, and then making up your mind. The vet’s feelings shouldn’t be YOUR concern at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangtrailrider
I have an American Bulldogge that I need to take to the vet and have his hip evaluated and see what is going on with him. I suspect hip dysplasia. He is a pound puppy and weighs 95 lbs! He is 3 years old and the neatest fellow I have ever had the pleasure of having in my life. Beyond a joint supplement, exercise, and weight control, I am not interested in pursuing treatment. He is active, happy, and loves life. I feel no need to treat it…he is otherwise happy. Until something needs to be done, I will leave him as is.
Please add pain meds to this list - many animals hide pain very well, so doing trials with medication can be the best determination of pain level.
I also strongly plead that you have Xrays done to diagnose the extent of joint dysplasia.
I just read this part- and yes, surgery should not be your first thought for hip dysplasia. Many dogs show remarkable improvement on a regimen of weight loss, exercise, proper diet, and joint supplements; if the dog progresses to the point that pain medication doesn’t keep the dog mobile and happy, then and only then should you consider surgery.
I am working on the assumption this is a caring owner and that all options have been presented to the owner. Owner is educated/aware and has had a chance to ask questions before making up their mind.
Then: I personally lose respect for the vet and want to find a new one. Owner cooperation is essential for any treatment plan to work. For many pet owners, euthanizing the family pet is a very hard thing to do. Don’t give the pet owner something to upset them further.
It’s not like this pet is healthy & young. Who is the vet to judge this individual’s beliefs, financial limitations, family’s wishes, etc?
The bigger picture is when vets refuse to euthanize a pet that isn’t going to get treated & is not a candidate for a new home, the pet suffers. Desperate owners take the dog straight to the Animal Control shelter to be put down, where he may wait alone in a cage until the end of the week when euthanasias are done. Sadly some of these pets are just pushed out of the car in someone else’s neighborhood because owner can’t bear to watch their pet dying & they feel abandoned by the veterinary profession. Some people I know will just take the dog or cat out back and shoot it.
I’m the type to end up guilt-tripped into keeping the pet alive at all costs… then I end up distrusting my vet. The vet clinic runs all sorts of diagnostics and none of it changes the fact that the pet is still dying of an incurable disease. For example over the years, I’ve had several cats go into chronic renal failure and the vet’s having me do all these things to keep the sick kitty alive. And it can add time to their life but eventually it catches up with them. Pretty soon kitty is scared of people because all we do is stick needles in them to give them subq fluids. Or push nasty pills down their throat when the cat stops taking them hidden in food. Cat’s quality of life diminishes, but the vet is trying to get me back in for another round of tests, so more “try this see if it works” drugs. Or buying the $1/can Rx renal diet cat food that the cat refuses to eat even when hungry, so now kitty is losing weight. Then vet wants kitty back in to see him again and prescribe an appetite stimulant and more blood work. Then we’re putting additives on his food, changing the brand of his food, you name it. And with every big change, the vet wants to do another round of diagnostics. Kitty crashes and then it’s a $500 emergency vet clinic visit – and all they want to do is run tests because they can’t see my local vet’s files. Then more weeks of fluids and special foods and the cat learns to fear us even more. And I do all this and I come home one day to find the kitty hidden away almost dead and having those awful death-gasping-twitching movements, and before I can crate him up to take him to the 24-hour vet to be put down, he’s dead. Why couldn’t I have given him a more peaceful ending? We all know CRF is incurable. I see the pet every day; let me decide when his quality of life is unacceptable.
I have generally had good luck-- if you can call it good in this situation-- by a) being upfront about what I am willing/ able to spend, and b) asking the vet, what would you do if this was your animal?
It is a tough spot to be in, though, for everyone involved.
For all those following this:
The 3 yo AB is not the same dog from the OP. That dog, in the OP, has been euthanized, at home, with a very caring vet!
The 3 yo is a rescue from the local AC. He is very happy, healthy, and fit. He is showing no signs of discomfort from dysplasia. It seems to be one hip, not bilateral.
No need to blame the breeder. Don’t know who it is…the end result is the same. Dog is here, with an issue, being managed in the best interests of the dog.
No, surgery will not be pursued. He is a very large dog that is currently very sound and happy. He is very active, following me on several long walks a day. When he starts showing signs of discomfort, to the vet he will go for pain medication. Surgery isn’t an option for him. I don’t think it is fair to put such a large wonderful dog through a very painful procedure that has iffy outcomes. I am not willing to risk his happiness and well-being to keep him around for a longer period of time.
It isn’t the money. It is about my values and beliefs. I want them to be happy, healthy and pain free, for as long as possible. I think that invasive procedures only prolong the inevitable and reduce quality of life. Yes, there are exceptions, there always are.
There are certain things I will/won’t do based upon my beliefs. My animals comfort are paramount.
Yes, I am educated. Yes, I am current on most procedures and treatments. No, I am not interested in trying to diagnose why my 10 yo dog is in severe pain and shaking/growling while hiding in the corner. He is in misery. It is time. No ifs ands or buts about it. He is not enjoying himself. Even though we could have found out what was causing his issues, the end result would have been euthanasia. He is at rest, at peace.
My favorite vet of all time had a questionaire you filled out when you first went to see her asking about things like how much do you/can you spend on animal care, do you want to know all the options, or other quality of life and care issues. It made things much easier, and the vet wouldn’t push for treatments she knew you didn’t want to do, but just would tell you about all of the options.
Boy would I love to have that type of vet. I miss the vets I had out west. No nonsense, no fluff, and common sense, ethical treatment. No more, no less than what you felt was needed.
Quality, basic preventative avoids most issues.
I will stick to my guns and keep pushing for what I believe and want for my animals. I won’t worry about the vets feelings and just ask/demand what I want.
Thank you for sharing your opinions. I really do appreciate all sides of those expressing their opinions. It isn’t an easy subject, but I am passionate about the care of my animals.
It isn’t about the cost of the treatments/diagnostics. It really isn’t. It is about doing what I feel is right for my pets. Each situation is so very different. Each pet is so very different. What I would do for one is very different than what I would do for the other!
This is me and Shadow. :sadsmile:
So very difficult with our elderly pets! Hugs to all!
Yep, you just have to express your wishes. Its really the clients choice - however the vet (as a professional) really should give you the options.
We see lots of older “sick” animals do well with treatment and live several more quality years - however some are not as lucky. It really depends on client wishes.
I work part time in the ICU where we can keep anything alive - doesnt mean its always the right choice, but we also see some very very ill patients who respond to treatment and go home to live long lives. One example is the 12 year old Shep/Hound cross diagnosed with lymphoma - owners debated whether to treat or not, and after a lot of thought decided to try it and see how she responded. Well, the dog had her 16th birthday a few months ago and is doing great. Owners were very very close to putting her to sleep (she was vomiting,not eating and appeared painful). She is now, at age 16+, looking like a spring chicken and doing great. However, those stories dont happen routinley… she is really a very lucky special dog.
I would just call and explain you want to euthanize your pet, regardless of treatment options. The vet should respect your wishes.
I used to think I’d go “the whole hog” to keep my cats going. Then I saw the abject misery someone I know put their pets through with extended diagnostics. That’s when I decided… as long as my pets are happy, we will continue. If diagnostics are “simple” and non-invasive (think blood tests etc), we’ll do them. If said diagnostics require anesthesia or extended vet office stays (my one cat does NOT do change), then doing them is not acting in the best interest of my animals.
My cats are in their mid-teens, have had long healthy lives, and I owe it to them that their last days, whenever they occur, are comfortable and happy.
If I ever found out that the vet I was using was on commission I would RUN away from that practice. I used to be in retail sales, and I have the ability to make almost anyone buy almost anything. On a couple of occasions I was asked by my boss if I wanted to go on a commission basis. I said no, because I knew I would pressure people into buying things they might regret later which would make them unhappy with my store and not come back. It seems to me that commissioned based pay for a vet couldn’t help but turn into pressure to test, test, test, explore, explore, and operate.
My vet called today to say that she’d noticed something while intubating my puppy yesterday. She’d never seen it before and had wanted to research it a bit before talking to me. It’s a very rare thing. She’d never seen it in 10 years of practice. She offered to give me a referral to a specialist surgeon. However although surgery is suggested for this problem, in my puppy’s case there are no symptoms, and would likely not have been found except for the intubation, so we’ll wait and see if it becomes a problem. She said she can understand if I don’t want to do anything at this point. I really respect her for her approach.
I don’t think it is fair to put such a large wonderful dog through a very painful procedure that has iffy outcomes.
what a minute though- surgery for hip dysplasia doesn’t have “iffy outcomes”, and is something you should consider if the dog needs it. The surgery itself shouldn’t be painful at all if proper pain meds are given.
There are basically two options: the best is a total hip replacement. Wonderful outcome- dog goes from being partially crippled and in severe pain to normal. Completely normal. There is a brief recovery period. Talk to any human who has had a total hip replacement and you’ll get some idea about how painful the actual surgery is vs. how painful having hip problems can be.
If you can’t afford a total hip replacement, the other option is called a femoral head osteotomy (FHO)- they basically remove the bony hip joint and the dog forms a “false joint”. This procedure also totally relieves the pain and disability of hip dysplasia. It doesn’t have quite as good a functional outcome as a hip replacement, but the dog isn’t in pain and isn’t crippled, most owners are very pleased with the dog’s mobility. The outcome isn’t “iffy” at all.
I think it’s rather unethical to euth a younger dog with hip dysplasia who needs more than medical management because there is a known, proven treatment. Putting an old dog with comorbidities through hip surgery is not a good idea, but a younger dog? FHO is quite cheap (as these things go) and the recovery is quick and easy- not even any confinement period, you need to get the dog moving ASAP to build that false joint.
Dogs with bilateral FHOs have been known to successfully compete in agility.
But I wouldn’t do surgery unless the dog fails a trial of medical management.
I wonder if, in the new day and age of large small animal vet practices if it’s more difficult to have a good relationship with a vet. My dog is now old and I was hesitant to go back to my dog vet because I don’t know them and they don’t know me or my dog. Yeah, I take my dog in for regular stuff and I even try to request the same vet, but I’ve found that they don’t actually remember me and I don’t really trust them even when I try to have a conversation about vet care.
Old story, I took an older dog in when she wasn’t feeling right and she was diagnosed with kidney failure. This was my heart dog, so I’d try anything. Nevertheless, the vet who should have known my dog was dying, never really mentioned the honesty of the situation. I think she wanted me to figure it out. My dog could have died an easier death a day or two sooner if the vet had been more honest. I didn’t really hold it against her too much, but she made the situation more difficult.
I have a new old dog and I just took her to a new vet yesterday because I didn’t really trust my old practice. New vet practice has two vets. New vet remembered me from when I had accompanied a friend with his dog. I am totally relieved that I could trust this vet and I think my dog is getting better care.
I have disagreed with my horse vet now and again over the years, but I feel as though we have a relationship and she knows what I want in the big picture.
Note also, I just put my dog on rimadyl, something I’m apprehensive about, and I’ve notice a significant change in her happiness and comfort level in less than 24hrs! If this works, it will make a huge change in her quality of life. Something to think about.
Client changes vets. I’m sorry you’re having to go through this. 
[QUOTE=wendy;6101938]
I think it’s rather unethical to euth a younger dog with hip dysplasia who needs more than medical management because there is a known, proven treatment. But I wouldn’t do surgery unless the dog fails a trial of medical management.[/QUOTE]
3yo Dog is happy, healthy, and very active compared to most dogs. I see signs of what might be dysplasia. At this point, I consider it unethical to put dog through surgery. He is living life to his fullest and makes us laugh every day.
When the time comes to consider further medical management beyond what we can’t do at home, vet treatment will be sought. Medications to manage pain is my preference.
I will not subject a dog this size to an extensive surgery that will be a difficult recovery on him and on us. I do not believe it is fair to put this dog through that treatment.
Yes, there are complications or potential complications with any procedure. When his quality of life is such that cannot be managed with medication and preventive care, I think euthanasia is a valid choice. This is my opinion.
Just because a treatment option exists doesn’t mean I have to pursue it. It depends on the insult and it depends on the animal.
