Differences in Opinions Between Vet & Client!

[SquishTheBunny]

[QUOTE=mustangtrailrider;6102933]
3yo Dog is happy, healthy, and very active compared to most dogs. I see signs of what might be dysplasia. At this point, I consider it unethical to put dog through surgery. He is living life to his fullest and makes us laugh every day.

When the time comes to consider further medical management beyond what we can’t do at home, vet treatment will be sought. Medications to manage pain is my preference.

I will not subject a dog this size to an extensive surgery that will be a difficult recovery on him and on us. I do not believe it is fair to put this dog through that treatment.

Yes, there are complications or potential complications with any procedure. When his quality of life is such that cannot be managed with medication and preventive care, I think euthanasia is a valid choice. This is my opinion.

Just because a treatment option exists doesn’t mean I have to pursue it. It depends on the insult and it depends on the animal.[/QUOTE]

This sounds ignorant. Not wrong,but ignorant. Absolutley if you dont want to treat the dog surgically,thats your opinion - but, total hip replacements have an extremely high success rate with BIG dogs (ie. newfies, berners, labs). I would in a heart beat put my dog through a procedure that isno more painful than a cruiciate surgery. But thats just my opinion. Again, if you prefer euthanasia to a potentially curative surgery than thats your choice and your vet shouldnt make you feel bad about it.

Have you actually had your dog evaluated for hip dysplasia,or is this an assumption? Often arthritic hips,cruciate tears or meniscal injuries can look like hip dysplasia. Good radiographs are really the best way to know.

Here is a great video on total hip replacements: http://www.5min.com/Video/Learn-About-Total-Hip-Replacement-in-Dogs-119177784 I dont really understand the “long” recovery time you are talking about- its absolutley no more than a typical curciate tear. Usually,they are walking the same day surgery is done. Also, how big is he? THR’s are generally done in dogs over 65lbs (up to 200).

I strongly would encourage at least a chat with an orthopedic surgeon before you decide to end a life. At least then,you can say you have your most educated opinions and go from there.

[wendy]

I will not subject a dog this size to an extensive surgery that will be a difficult recovery on him and on us. I do not believe it is fair to put this dog through that treatment.

what the heck are you talking about? they do hip replacement surgery on very large dogs all the time, and the recovery isn’t difficult at all. The only valid reason not to choose it for a youngish healthy dog is it costs a lot of money.

[paulaedwina]

This is exactly what I’m talking about. People make all kinds of wacky decisions about their animals without benefit of consultation with professionals. In your mind it makes perfect sense, when in fact it might not.

This is an interesting discussion because back when I’d wanted to be vet all the way to undergrad. My dad asked once why not a human doctor, and I said I didn’t want to deal with people. What I learned was vets have to deal with people without the filter that human doctors have. You would never say to your pediatrician, “I’m not going to correct Suzy’s crooked legs because the procedure will be painful”, but a person will say to a vet, “Please declaw my 13 year old cat”.

Paula

[mustangtrailrider]

Ok, I have stated multiple times that the dog is very healthy, happy, and very, very active. He is not suffering from any signs of disease at this point. While I notice assymetrical muscling, dog is fully functional. Why subject dog to surgery at this point?!

There is no wacky decision going on right now. Perhaps I am better informed and more educated than my posts would seem. Often I have trouble forming my thoughts onto screen or into verbal communication. I understand completely…very logically.

To compare this dog to a human child, how dare you? Huge difference and such an insult to the child, parent, and physician!

Making decisions without consulting professionals, very far from the truth. I know very, very clearly what is involved with these procedures, perhaps more than most. With extensive experience in orthopedics, I see and do more than most, on a daily basis.

There are other reasons for not doing sugery on a youngish healthy dog other than money. A very narrow point of view and it isn’t always about the money.

Choosing to pursue or not pursue such treatments on my animals, is my choice. My choice is based upon experience, education, and a deep love of my animals. My choices may be different than yours. That is ok. As I said, I am not able to verbalize or communicate the way that I truly wish to do so. My fault for not coming across correctly.

Now I know why I have trouble communicating with my vet…heck, I can’t come across clearly to those here.

There will be no ending of life with this dog anytime soon. He is snoring on my couch as we speek. He is very happy and ain’t going anywhere! He will get a vet check up in the spring as a matter of course. Not rushing into anything with him.

You have given me thoughts on how I communicate and points that I need to clarify. My core beliefs may be different than most. I know more about medicine and surgical procedures than most people do…perhaps this is my fault.

Thank you for your points and insights. You are encouraging me to think and have shared information that I will consider. Case by case evaluation is critical.

[irkenequine]

They weren’t referring to you specifically as ignorant; but hte mindset that 'surgery is invasive and unhelpful is VERY “old school.” If you’ve got the money, I see it with my own eyes that hip surgery, TPLO’s etc are ‘no big deal’–up and walking almost instantaneously, few weeks of rest and on with life. If you don’t–nobody’s judging. Dogs don’t care if you are rich.

I also have to say with a sigh and an eyeroll I’m over the “how dare anyone compare the needs of my dogs to the love you have for your child” comments. All Squish and Paula were trying to say (and I agree) is that often times, people assume WITHOUT initially speaking to the vet that the most minimal approach to a ‘not yet’ problem is the ‘best’ decision for their dog. And if it is for your dog, excellent; I’m not saying every dog needs to run out and have immediate surgery; but a 150 dollar eval so that you and your vet are on the same PAGE about it, and the problem is being monitored is the key.

And @paula, thats why I’m a tech and not a vet. I’ll clean up poop all day, I’ll deal with snapping biting animals, i’ll monitor anesthesia for 6 hours straight, but some of the things that come out of owners mouths…oh boy.

[lolita1]

To the orginal poster of the thread I totally agree with you.

[dressagetraks]

The vet is the trained expert. But the owner is the one who should make the final decision.

Love my vet practice. They will present the different routes and benefits, especially with an older animal. “It could be A, B, or C. If we do diagnostics A, that will rule out A or B. B would require surgery, A treatable with medicine. We would have to do more extended diagnostics to rule out C, and C would require more extended treatment. Or we could just try treatment A with medicine without doing diagnostics and see what the result is. What would you like to do here?”

I like that approach. Yes, I want their opinions and information, but no, I don’t want a guilt trip for not pulling out every single test or saying there is no limit whatsoever (either financially or morally) to what I’d do in this animal’s treatment. They simply give the info and then make it my choice. And my choice is not always euth, in fact rarely euth. But I will sometimes make the quality of life euth choice especially on an older pet rather than extended treatment.

A few times, they have asked, “What is your financial limit for this animal?” Again, no guilt, no “only bad owners don’t do EVERYTHING” attitude. I remember when I brought in Emily D., thought she had a broken leg but turned out she had a bad abscess. She’s my head barn cat. They asked up front what the limit was, and I told them and said if we hit that, euth and call me back first so I can come say goodbye. She did require surgery for I and D but came in well under it.

I did have one case with an elderly cat where all diagnostic options and potential treatments presented by the vet seemed too extreme to me, morally/quality of life-wise, not just financial. This cat hated pills, treatments, and vets. I opted no treatment and euth. No guilt trip at all or trying to convince otherwise from the vet; he respected my decision. BUT that time, the only time in my experience, he did ask if he could have the body for a while and do further tests/samples/autopsy, for his own professional curiosity and education. He really would have liked to know what the answer was. No further charge to me; he just wanted to learn the answer for his sake. I agreed to that. The vet called me back later personally and said that it had actually been problem D, none of the above, and that the cat was in pain, would have been untreatable, and had no quality of life left. He agreed that I had made the right decision in this case. That call meant a lot to me, and I did respect his wanting to know more for future animals, just not on my cat’s pain clock.

Anyway, I do want the information from them, but the final choice what to do with their information will be mine, and if they don’t seem to respect/honor that fact or give me a guilt trip for not doing absolutely everything possible, I would change vets.

ETA: One of my personal belief points is with cancer treatment. I actually have this documented in writing on myself, and it even more applies to my pets, who cannot know why they are getting this treatment that makes them feel like crap, even if temporarily. In any case of cancer, CURATIVE intent surgery is fine. PALLIATIVE surgery, nope. I’d euth before that (pets, not me, but I’m not having palliative surgery either). Chemo or radiation, no freaking way. Not under any conditions. If they gave me a guarantee in writing that it would be 100% successful, I still wouldn’t want it. I have typed on and seen far too many cases where the chemo/radiation weren’t worth it in terms of quality of life gained and short-term and long-term damage. Yes, the doc has seen more cases, but in the instance of cancer, I’ve seen more than enough evidence that that opinion is in stone at this point. Just typed another horror story this week. I wouldn’t do it for me. No freaking way I’d do it for a pet. My vet practice knows this up front. If they did not respect that choice for me and mine, even if they would disagree with it for themselves, I’d find another vet practice.

[paulaedwina]

I have a very practical vet who is part of a very practical vet practice. I just went through this quite recently with one of my cats with a very aggressive tumor in his upper jaw.

The issue isn’t that people should do everything under the sun or risk being considered bad pet owners, it’s people making decisions without information, IMO.

Paula

[mustangtrailrider]

Yes, the what comes out of my mouth must be a shock. I have been told by one vet that if I had pet insurance, cost wouldn’t be a problem. Staff not tell vet of critical lab values and animal is left without care until second opinion is sought.

So yes, I will make my decisions for my reasons. To not do surgery may be archaic, but I have my reasons for this specific animal. When a consult is needed, one will be sought.

So yes, the vet is a valued member of my team. I appreciate the good vets and they are out there. I just have a hard time communicating with vets and their staff. I am very caring and do right by my animals. It amazes me how written word doesn’t convey true thoughts and it is easy to take it out of context. After reading and rereading the posts here, I understand both sides of the coin better. Thank you all.

Yes, I prefer my patients anesthetized as well. Yes, mine are sedated or asleep. I love it. Providing high quality care when someone needs me most. I love being there for someone when they need care. So, I do believe surgery…just not in all cases for all humans or animals.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=wendy;6105461]
what the heck are you talking about? they do hip replacement surgery on very large dogs all the time, and the recovery isn’t difficult at all. The only valid reason not to choose it for a youngish healthy dog is it costs a lot of money.[/QUOTE]

I am curious, where would most of you place back surgery on the spectrum of recovery difficulty?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;6098223]
I’d also say though that sometimes the vet has a better perspective because he is not so close to your animal. You see your animal, for example, getting older, stiffer, grumpier, and you think it’s time to let him go. Your vet observes the same thing and thinks an aspirin a day will make him a different animal, or what you see as crisis is simply aging. [/QUOTE]

How many people actually do that though I have to wonder.

Taking care of an aged animal is not easy.

[paulaedwina]

Taking care of an aged anything isn’t easy, but aging is inevitable and I expect that I’m going to be there with my animals at some point. So far I’ve gone through this with my dogs (Yoshi is now 12). I mean heck, you’re going to go through it with your parents, you’re going to go through it yourself.

I find that because it is hard to endure aging of a loved one (animal or human) I have to ask myself whether I’m putting him out of his misery or my misery. If the answer is that I’m putting him out of my misery the I feel I have to take a step back and allow my animal to live his life.

Paula

[grayarabpony]

Most people cannot actually take care of their aged parents so that’s not really a good comparison. Besides, I can tell you, anyone can live too long.

Well I’ve already been through taking care of aged animals with my family’s Cairn Terrier and then our JRT that DH and I got soon after we got married. She lived to be 20 years of age, so it’s pretty clear that she lived about as long as possible. I’m at home so I was able to take her outside as many times as she needed and get up a minimum of 2 times a night during the last two years. I was able to take her to physical therapy 2-3 times a week for 3 months after back surgery. Many dog owners would not have been able to do all that.

It’s foolish not to also consider the owner’s life in the decision to put an animal to sleep. No one else should really decide what is best for the owner AND that animal but that animal’s family.

[mustangtrailrider]

I do agree that many people put the animal out of the human’s misery. It is difficult to define when that point is for our aging pets. I have clear, finite criteria for my pets. My criteria might be very different than yours. First and foremost, however, is that my pet is comfortable and happy to do the activities he/she enjoys doing. Walking, playing, eating, sleeping, and seeking attention are normal activites that decline with age. The pet becomes slower, plays less, eats less, sleeps more and is happy to be in the chair beside me…normal aging dog.

A pet that stops his normal activities, normal for him even with his aging, is one that is approaching the end of his life, in my opinion.

I am of the opinion that if I am asking the question, is it time, it might be time. Whether it is for my misery or his misery really doesn’t matter.

A quiet, dignified death surrounded by loved ones is far better than another day in pain, hungry, and miserable!

Be very clear and upfront about my wishes. I will be crystal clear. Thank you all for helping me see how to communicate!

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6106455]
I am curious, where would most of you place back surgery on the spectrum of recovery difficulty?[/QUOTE]

The answer to that takes a whole lot more information than we have. A dog that was perfectly normal and suddenly went down from a disk who gets immediate surgery has a much better outcome than a older dog with a history of chronic back issues who has slowly been showing neuro signs and finally has surgery.

I have seen post-op backs go either way post op. I do think that rehab plays a major part in a fast and improved recovery for any major orthopedic surgery, but even more so for backs.

Katherine
Vet Tech

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;6106896]
The answer to that takes a whole lot more information than we have. A dog that was perfectly normal and suddenly went down from a disk who gets immediate surgery has a much better outcome than a older dog with a history of chronic back issues who has slowly been showing neuro signs and finally has surgery.

I have seen post-op backs go either way post op. I do think that rehab plays a major part in a fast and improved recovery for any major orthopedic surgery, but even more so for backs.

Katherine
Vet Tech[/QUOTE]

My dog didn’t really fit either one of those categories. She was 16 when she developed problems and they were sudden and severe. No slow encrochment of symptoms.

I was wondering because looking back we were not at all prepared by the vets for what we would be facing post-op. Not just what the humans would be facing but the dog too.

Anyway I just used her as an example to show how difficult taking care of an aged or disabled dog can be.

[irkenequine]

I am curious, where would most of you place back surgery on the spectrum of recovery difficulty?

-x-

Whats the size of the dog, WHERE is the injury, is it trauma, disc-disease, tumor? related, is it a low-rider breed, age, WEIGHT and how long has the dog been asymptomatic.

We do probably 15 backs a week here and recovery is very dependent on the above factors. Some walk out the next day, some never control their bowels again. “Depends” is a lousy and vague answer, though.

[grayarabpony]

Thanks Horsegal and irkenequine. It makes sense that difficulty of recovery from back surgery is all over the map.

[aucowwy]

[QUOTE=mustangtrailrider;6099947]
For all those following this:

The 3 yo AB is not the same dog from the OP. That dog, in the OP, has been euthanized, at home, with a very caring vet!

The 3 yo is a rescue from the local AC. He is very happy, healthy, and fit. He is showing no signs of discomfort from dysplasia. It seems to be one hip, not bilateral.

No need to blame the breeder. Don’t know who it is…the end result is the same. Dog is here, with an issue, being managed in the best interests of the dog.

No, surgery will not be pursued. He is a very large dog that is currently very sound and happy. He is very active, following me on several long walks a day. When he starts showing signs of discomfort, to the vet he will go for pain medication. Surgery isn’t an option for him. I don’t think it is fair to put such a large wonderful dog through a very painful procedure that has iffy outcomes. I am not willing to risk his happiness and well-being to keep him around for a longer period of time.

It isn’t the money. It is about my values and beliefs. I want them to be happy, healthy and pain free, for as long as possible. I think that invasive procedures only prolong the inevitable and reduce quality of life. Yes, there are exceptions, there always are.

There are certain things I will/won’t do based upon my beliefs. My animals comfort are paramount.

Yes, I am educated. Yes, I am current on most procedures and treatments. No, I am not interested in trying to diagnose why my 10 yo dog is in severe pain and shaking/growling while hiding in the corner. He is in misery. It is time. No ifs ands or buts about it. He is not enjoying himself. Even though we could have found out what was causing his issues, the end result would have been euthanasia. He is at rest, at peace.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with you. It is your pet not the vets. The vet can tell you what is best/ what they recommend but it is up to the owner what path they want to take with that pet, Just because some one does not persue a treatment that might prolong a life a little while longer does not make them a bad owner. As long as that pet is taken care of properly while is alive is what matters.

[witherbee]

[QUOTE=Paddys Mom;6098008]
I have been in this situation once and I am about to go there again.

I took my aged anti-social indoor cat to the vet and they diagnosed diabetes and ordered all sorts of tests and insulin, etc. I declined. I switched her to wet food and her symptoms are reasonably controlled on this. They told me I was killing her by not treating this. Thanks for your support.

It is now two years later and the same cat is now indiscriminately peeing. I want to take her in but I am afraid that the new vet (certainly not going back to the old one!) will give me grief too.

I will opt for treatment that does not stress my anti-social cat, beyond that it is euthanasia.[/QUOTE]

Paddy’s Mom, I almost went that route with one of my cats who was diabetic, but luckily there was a woman in the waiting room who was very “un-animal” saavy, and she said she was having no problems dealing with her diabetic cat. That made me re-think what I was willing to do, and I decided to try it and stop if my cat seemed to be unhappy with the treatment.

Arthur was 7 when he developed it after a bout of pancreatitis. He did extremely well with the treatment and it was really easy to do. I was even able to draw blood to monitor his sugar at home with a meter. Was not very expensive and he lived 4 more years (he had other health problems his whole life, so that alone was a miracle). I am so glad I did that, because his brother developed diabetes later on, so I had the experience to be able to treat him. He lived to be 14 and was a big tough guy.

That said - if your guy is old or you just think it would be too invasive, I completely understand!

These were my boys - I still miss them!
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wtryan/Our%20Pets/Mac/MyBoys2-03.jpg