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Difficult young horse - WWYD?

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@Equkelly I think you(g) could be doing a disservice to yourself and your horse, by letting discipline cloud your judgment on trainer’s ability to produce a solid citizen horse.

As someone who has been involved in elite barns, dressage and eventing, I can tell you that there are plenty of top trainers that muscle their way around a WB. It is ubiquitous in the sport. It’s not limited to western populations. A good trainer is a good trainer, regardless of discipline – and the fundamental basics are generally the same across all disciplines, too.

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I’m curious as to where that assumption is coming from… perhaps you didn’t read the whole thread?

Because I grew up riding western. I still ride both English and western. I started my own warmblood in western tack. I was well immersed in that discipline before I transitioned to the H/J world. I also said I think Warwick Schiller is one of the best horsemanship trainers alive and I said I read every single Mark Rashid book… both of them are western riders and they both even wear cowboy hats. The idea that I’m letting my “discipline” cloud my judgment is ludicrous and presumptuous.

I still don’t support a lot of the training practices by MOST of the cowboy-type colt starters. I think sometimes a lot of them are too demanding in how fast they ask. That doesn’t make them bad trainers and that doesn’t mean that some of them aren’t wildly successful. Sport horses and stock horses are just very different animals with very different minds. And if you go at the right pace, and you’re empathetic in your training, it won’t matter what breed you work with. A lot of the cowboy colt starters are not that way. I literally just watched a colt starting clinic at the horse expo I was just at. Every single one spent time flooding their horse and “desensitizing” and cow kicking their horses through the obstacles and I’m sorry that doesn’t work well with a lot of sport horses, that’ll just make them shut down.

It has nothing to do with the discipline, it’s about the horsemanship.

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Well, my assumption[s] came from the following quotes:

Personally, I don’t care for a lot of the cowboy type colt starters.

I’ve noticed that a lot of the horses that don’t do well with those types of trainers are sport horses.

A lot of the natural horsemanship cowboying around works fine for quarter horses/ paints/ and applies/ but I’m sorry you can’t just muscle around a warmblood.

If I were you, I would explore other training options with people who typically work with sport horses and avoid the cowboys.

But a lot of it is rooted in negative reinforcement and positive punishment which is fine for most horses but not all.

MOST cowboy like colt starters over focus on getting the horse to “respect” the trainer and obey every little movement, but for a lot of situations, respect and obedience turns into fear and they shut down.

I’m not one to argue much on these forums anymore, though I can reiterate my position as needed in polite conversation, but those little snippets to me paint a broad picture about your experience with colt starters and suggest to the readers (like myself) that your opinion of cowboys and their horsemanship is quite poor.

That’s your opinion and you don’t need to justify it to me, it’s built on your life experiences… My life experiences are different, therefore, my different opinion contrasting your own.

There’s a big world out there, and regional differences can play a huge part in someone’s experience. There are not many “out west” cowboys in my area. There are, however, some exceptional colt starters (that are western) that many of the big name barns send their sport horse (warmbooods, mostly) to.

Regarding this quote in particular –

But a lot of it is rooted in negative reinforcement […]

What do you think most dressage barns do to train their horses…? Just curious… Leg aids are negative reinforcement. Rein aids are negative reinforcement. Pressure to a flank, nose, hip to move over, all negative reinforcement… A tap of the whip, clucking, moving into a horse’s space, all negative reinforcement and all perfectly valid methods in which to teach a horse something… Pressure/release is negative reinforcement. Don’t know many professional dressage trainers, or professional sport horse trainers for that matter, that think appropriately timed negative reinforcement is a bad thing…

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I was going to post in support of what some posters are calling “cowboy colt starters”. Of course one would do their due dilligence before shipping a young horse away. Good and bad trainers exist in all aspects of horse training. The ones I would chose come with excellent reputatioins and I am very comfortable using one of these guys and I am one of those people who have a very gentle and quiet approach. The one person I would never send my horse to is a level 11 dressage coach, so it is good to have an open mind.

I hope your horse gets sorted.

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So because I don’t agree with something that clearly must mean I’m ignorant on the topic. Wow someone thinks a little too highly of their opinions because that sort of horsemanship obviously can’t be flawed therefore everyone who doesn’t agree must just not know any better! /s

And yea obviously -R is involved in all horse training and no that’s not a bad thing. If you were once again, being presumptuous and thought you were debating a +R exclusivist, think again. I use -R it in my training, and on a trail ride, and when I’m jumping, and when I’m leading my horse. It’s necessary in all horse training IMO. But there’s a huge different between your training being ROOTED in -R and using reasonable amounts of -R in every day training. And that’s exactly what (NH especially) is. It’s using the horse’s natural instincts and communication as a form of training. Horses just communicate through -R with each other. (One horse pins their ears to get another horse to move and if they don’t, they apply pressure by kicking/ biting etc.)

I never once said I didn’t understand it. I never once said it doesn’t work. I’m saying I don’t care for it and I think some horses, especially sport horse breeds don’t do well with it. In my training I want my horse to want to find the right answer because that’s what we both want… not because there’s going to be pressure for doing the wrong thing.

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NOT a fan of Clinton Anderson - much too pushy, forceful and takes what he is asking too far. Parelli is a joke. I am a fan of Brannamon and one of his students worked with some of my babies and I was very impressed with her. I know there are some Connemara bloodlines that are a bit difficult, but don’t know the ones. However, force and pushy methods won’t work - they will just duke it out with you. I’ve seen some of these cowboy trainers that like to totally isolate the young horse in a dark stall unless being worked, which I vehemently disagree with. I’ve started babies for 40 years and although I no longer do that, I like the ones that are very green to work with as the babies and breeding has always been my niche. Sometimes a reactive horse just lacks confidence or trust in the trainer and just need more time. You can’t make a young horse “fit” a training schedule or method - you have to work with what you have and what they can give you on a given day and keep it positive. I hope things work out for your young horse.

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Wow, I missed a lot while I was at work yesterday! I didn’t mean for it to turn into a discussion about cowboy trainers, but it is an interesting discussion. I think so much of it must depend on the individual trainer and horse.

In defense of this trainer, cowboy might not be the best description, as he is not the stereotypical rough and tough, big talking type. He is very well regarded among all circles, from dressage to hunters to trail riders and has done a lot of work with mustangs directly from BLM. He is the guy everyone around here refers you to when you have a problem horse, which is why I was so concerned when he said he couldn’t get on this horse.

Had a long discussion with the trainer last night. He feels strongly that this is not a behavioral issue, but rather that he is in pain somewhere and trying to tell us. We’re going treat for Lyme and scope for ulcers next week, and in the meantime, back off on training, other than some low pressure, in hand stuff. We will re-evaluate next month and go from there.

Thanks again all for the feedback!

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Good update… your trainer sounds like a class act… I hope you can get to the bottom of the ulcers soon. Ask your vet about Nexium if you’re not seeing any results from UG/GG. Hope your guy is back on his feet ASAP.

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I see you’re in MA–if you’re in eastern Mass anywhere near Ocean State Equine in RI, they’re doing a deal for the month of March–gastroscope for $250 plus sedation if you bring them into the clinic.

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My young gelding went to a friend for training. She has done wonders with my difficult mare in training her to load, and I trusted her to give him a great foundation. He’s an odd mix and certainly was bred with anything but color and flash in mind (Amish bred dutch harness horse/hackney/Appaloosa).

Anyways, he went from being turned out 24/7 essentially his whole life and leading a very natural lifestyle to being stalled part time, getting grain and routine groundwork. She had ridden him at the place I board and we figured he’d be easy because he caught on quick. He eventually became so explosive and dangerous, her husband said he had to go. He ended up coming home, I had the vet out for lymes and a lameness exam. Lymes came back negative and vet deemed him sound. I gave him some time off because he came back and now I have someone leasing him. The explosiveness has gone away, he isn’t striking out.

In fact, he started gently kicking out and I had him checked to find the saddle that once fit, no longer fit. Bought him a new saddle and the kicking out has stopped. I expected him to be much worse with how he was at the trainers.

It sounds like you have a great trainer in your corner, like I did. She’s actually coming out to give my leaser a lesson, but understandably so she refuses to ride him.

I would treat for what he has and see if 24/7 turnout is an option, I truly believe that is what helped my horse.

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Just an observation I’ve made with my current 4 yo…24/7 turnout can make an unbelievable change in a horse! My gelding got started and I was riding him but I felt that he was still not “safe” about certain things (he would have an occasional panic moment with mounting…or if you reached over to give him a suger). I sent him to a different trainer for some desensitizing…where he also lived out with a pony 24/7 unless the weather was bad. You would not believe what a different horse he became! Totally mellow with the extra turnout. He’s been home working all winter…but not on night turnout and he is super high energy and hyped. So today I am leaving him out until dusk…when the weather is a bit warmer overnight, he is going back out all night!

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Parelli trainer is not representative of all cowboys out there. I know a lot of REALLY good, gentle western guys who are MUCH better at starting sensitive babies then many sport horse trainers. Personally, I find that the Parelli method is not always so great with horses - but a GOOD cowboy is often the best thing for a sport horse. Someone who doesn’t cram them into a frame, who lets them find their own feet and balance, who works a bit on ground manners, and who gets them out of the arena can be the best thing ever for a Warmblood type. Some of the best reiners practice riding very similar to dressage, only without the contact.

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Sounds like backing off and treatment is a good plan, some horses have a hard time adjusting going from 24/7 turnout to limited turnout, some get easily stressed and act out and not all follow “the ideal” time line, good that you are not trying to push him in a box

Reevaluating his feed might be a good thing, especially if he is showing ulcer signs, he might need more forage of a different type and quality and less grain and maybe try ration balancer and adding fat to help with additional calories. Or a different type of concentrate grain

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Could he have back and/or eye (sight) issues?

A suggestion would be to try and find a good event rider that can take him in the off season. I agree about the Pirelli and Clinton Anderson types. I had a gelding that we used for lunge line lessons on occasion. He was a PSG horse with too many buttons to turn a rider loose with if they were not trained to his level. Had a Pirelli/Clinton Anderson trainer work with him and he could not lunge him so started beating him in the head with his stick. Never will I trust one of this so called trainers near one of my horses again. And this idiot has a big following and is hooked up with a USDF certified instructor. My last foal, a now 17 hand Warmblood, went to event rider (as in Rolex competitor) Julie Norman-Shamburger. What an excellent job she did and he came back happy and with his adorable personality intact. Of course, it does not need to be said, but address his medical issues first.

Equkelly, i read your posts in this thread and we have the exact same philosophy with horses. I truly respect Warwick. I have put many horses of all types under saddle. Also restarted many. I have never had a horse like I have now. She is a kwpn mare that was bred by a clueless woman that did not wean her correctly nor did she do anything else with her correctly. She is extremely talented. She is also extremely explosive, sensitive and gets pissed off. I know she was chased by the flag as she literally attempts to charge it, bite it, strike it, kick it. I have been extremely patient and kind. I have gotten as far as getting on and moving with energy, even taking a few steps of trot. But now I am to the point that I need some one very good on the ground. My old trainer who worked and lived with Tom Dorrence is retired and I do not know where to go. This is a crucial part of her development. I want her to be responsive and not resentful of my aids. I recently stopped saddle work to look for options so I would not create a resentment issue. I am in NC, but willing to go anywhere. I just don’t trust anyone. Do you have any recommendations? If you do, I can give you my phone number.

You would be a life saver. She cannot go to even a Buck Brannaman would be too much. I can ride her through it if someone else moves her, if that is the right answer. Honestly, I have never encountered anything like her. My old mentor kept asking if she was an orphan. She still refers to her as an orphan.

Thank you for any help.

Thank God I got her, she would have killed someone else and/or ended up beaten then in a kill pen. Shame on her breeder. She comes from a mare line that is known in the US a breeding program that has produced 18 GP horses, 48 FEI horses. A great sire. Nothing wrong with her genetics. The dam was leased to this breeder.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you

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Just a few thoughts from me. JMHO.

Fact: You went to a trainer instead of doing this training yourself at home. So you were not confident in yourself to do this on your own at home by yourself.

Fact: With any training if you get the timing wrong you will teach the horse the opposite of what you want. This seems to be where you are now. He has lost his trust in you.

Only my thoughts: If the desensitising clinic used the training of putting pressure on the horse and not taking it off. I hate that training. In the end the horse turns off and you could put a lion in that yard and they would not react to it. You did not get to this point.

I prefer Spooky Object Training by John Chatterton. Again if you do Spooky Object Training by John Chatterton with the incorrect timing, you will teach the horse the opposite of what you want.

The correct training is to release pressure when the horse is thinking of what you want. Down to 100ths of a second. If you are too late and release when his thinking has changed. You are teaching the wrong thing.

So answer this question honestly. Do you know what the horse is thinking? As you have restarted multiple OTTB’s that is a great start and I would have expected your answer to be yes.

If the answer is no, you need to send to a different trainer.

If the answer was yes you would have already done this training at home. He would not be doing the opposite of what you were trying to train. So I am torn by what you have posted and what your horse is saying.

New thought.

With any horse each time you interact with a horse you are training it.

Every time you train a horse it is little bit better or a little bit worse.

If your horse is a little bit better every day. The horse you start with next Monday is a lot better than the horse last Monday. Next Monday the horse is better again. Next Monday WOW to the horse you originally started with. You do not need help trying this horse. You still have lessons and enjoy them.

If your horse is a little bit worse each time you train it. Then Next Monday the horse you start with is a lot worse than last Monday. Get help fast as you don’t want to find out what the horse is like Next Monday or the Monday after. Things go downhill fast.

If the horse is the same each Monday, you need help as the horse is not progressing and the horse learns a lot faster than the rider. In here fits words you used to describ him:- as challenging, always looking for that cheeky opportunity to misbehave.

Another thought:

You said you took this horse to the clinic to be backed. You mentioned hand walking, you did not mention lunging or long reining, which are usually done before backing. Again JMHO.

I would say the change affected him. Take him home and continue his old training. Be consistent. He needs to trust you again. Horses are resilient. The next couple of times you take him off the property let him chill and bring him home again. You want to teach him that bad things do not happen and you always come home.

Do not think of backing him again until he is back to the horse as you described as sweet and cuddly.

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Bel, she is lucky she found you.

Getting on is the hardest part and you have done that so kudos to you.

Breaking is now over, now it is just training.

I don’t like that she charges at a flag. The poor mare and what they did to her.

If she is okay with a lunge whip? I would lunge her with 2 reins so as she can not attack. You can long rein her. Lunging teaches her the words you want like walk, trot, cantercand halt. Long reining teaches her how the bit works for turning and halt. Then you can use all that under saddle.

Sorry I can’t help with an instructor, I am on the other side of the World.

I can’t thank you enough for getting back to me. Just talking helps.
She is annoyed by any form of “stick” aid. I don’t know what other term to use. She may tolerate something for a brief amount of time, but then her reaction is the same. Ears pinned, tail swishing, swinging haunches toward longe line or stick and can at the same time swing a shoulder over and strike- she often rears then goes straight into a jump, twists in mid air and kicks directly where I would be standing if I did not know where to be. I don’t believe she is aiming for me with the kicks, but her kicks are very serious. If they were to connect, it could kill me. But I am honestly unphased. I do NOT back up. And I watch the videos ect…. I have myself videoed, my timing may not be perfect, but I really do not hang like I see people do ( drives me nuts to see people keep asking their horse and not recognize a change). I have good timing. I am not asking for too much. I notice small changes. We stop and chew a lot, I spend a lot of time scratching her, trying to make everything positive.
Lunging she falls in with her shoulder, I go back and do exercises to correct this, we get there, we try again to lunge, she comes in with the shoulder, I ask her to move out - she will explode. I expect this, it’s just - I would not expect it for a year. I do not dwell on it. I want to preserve her legs. I focus on what I can improve.

I like the long line idea, but I do think it would be the same story with her. Ok for as long as I kept everything under threshold for her, but if I ask for just a little more, she may give it for a short time, but would quickly lash out at any sign of the lunge whip. ( I also must say that when I introduce something like asking for a little more, I literally stop after one try and get off) - I do not get greedy.

But long lining her would possibly take the place of having me in the saddle and my ground person, which was my initial plan. I know she will react and basically have a tantrum.

My dressage trainer I work with is vice President of kwpn na, he is very good, but very Dutch. He is also a very hard 9-12 hours away with traffic. I could see if he could take her full training, and I go with her as they do not start young horses anymore, but he would be far better at long lining than myself.

Thank you for the idea. I really appreciate it. I have been on disability with no money and finally well again and well largely in part due to this horse I think ( attacked TBI then LYME, PTSD). Would like to move forward so I can possibly work on getting my pharmacist license again and working.

She is such a sweet girl, you would never know there was so much hidden underneath.

Thank you

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You are right, always think safety first.

Your mare sounds like she is the result of someone with the incorrect timing. They have taught the opposite of what they were trying to teach. It is harder to retrain that it is to train, and that is what you are left with.

With my boy he had bitten someone standing at his yard. He had kicked out at a staff member who used it when he was free. I would explain him as having a very high idea of fairness and if he thinks you do something that is not fair he would retaliate.

Not long after he was home he was in the house yard and I directed him with the lunge whip. He said that is not fair and retaliated. I calmly told him that it was fair, I was using it as an aid, I had used it correctly and he is to calm down and do what I ask and not attack, and I asked again.

He accepted that. I have always been fair with him and he now trusts me. Sigh I cannot transfer that trust to the Dentist, but I digress.

It was my experience alone that was able to tell Sim that what I had done was fair. I cannot instruct you on what I did as that was between Sim and I.

For the following if you do not feel up to it do not try it. Always safety first.

For the whip, Normally I run the whip over them and praise. You will have to work up to that. I presume you can groom her. Have a small stick with you, no longer than the brush. The shoulder is safest. Start with the brush. Brush and praise. To start with praise may be a food treat. Swap to stick and brush and praise. Let her now it was a stick and praise. Just a bit each day. Gradually with a longer stick. Once you can brush her all over with a whip you have a start.

Also if you always get off after one try, you are training her that. You will then have to retrain her that she must try again and it is harder to retrain than train. Instead of getting off, teach her that walk on a long rein is a reward. Is that possible?