Difficult young horse - WWYD?

[Bel]

Thank you again.

I can offer no advice on how to work through dental anxiety, but I do wish you luck

You did a very good job with your horse, and I can identify with your methodology. I also believe I am fair, asking fair. She is a hard balance. I sometimes wonder if I am not asking for enough or strong enough - letting her bully me. But at the same time I do know that she has legitimate baggage. She is so intelligent, am I allowing her to essentially out smart me?

You have excellent advice with regards to the sticks, lunge. That is one of the first things I do. I am able to rub her anywhere with any lunge, dressage whip, tarp, ball, feed bag, plastic bag even the flag.
It is when I use it as an aid to ask or direct something. And I always see how little it can take to get a response. And I genuinely grow bigger or stronger slowly especially at first.

And she is usually responsive. At first. It is when I ask for a little more, just a slight change that I see a difference in her demeanor. She will give me a slight change at first, and then - and she does this with things, she’s honestly like F*** you. I’m done. I am a pretty damn confident ground person and rider, and I can and will not back off when she reacts when for instance I am on the ground disengaging or untracking her feet, I stay with her, will get stronger if needed until I get the response. Then I stop.

And then, I continue like it never happened. I do nothing out of anger or frustration.

To ride is the end result of a very long journey, I enjoy the bonding and the ground work very much.

I worry about the resentment and like you said, retaliation she seems to have when I try to use an aid. And the “switch” that seems to happen with her. She suddenly decides something with the trailer is not ok again, she tolerate me asking for something for a while then NO. And is very violent.

She reverts back to crowding, invading space, ears back, attacking whatever stimulus is - I Actually coated my stirrups in hot sauce and my paddock boots to stop her from bitting them. Even though I wasn’t using my legs, she was annoyed. I didn’t want to kick her or hit her - I have no way of asking her to go forward (which is my answer to many things). I do not use a flag because she is so violent towards it when I use it as an aid.

Don’t know if you know anything about this, I am wondering if it’s due to being weaned early. She is incredibly orally fixated. Anything and everything will go into her mouth. Anything hanging outside the ring, anything on the ground, anything.

Thank you again. Sims is a very cute name.

Where are you by the way?

[LSMarnell]

Bel, you should start your own thread about this, this is a two and a half year old discussion.
I do wonder now what ended up happening to the to the OP’s young gelding though.

[SuzieQNutter]

Yes Bel if you start your own thread I will reply.

I am flooded in currently. I have the choice of picking up weeds, doing housework or relying to you. Guess which Wins!

[goodpony]

I breed mostly Connemara x Thoroughbreds most of which are easy to start and work with. I can say some lines are notoriously more challenging than others. But your story sounds to me like Ulcers or some other physical issue. Im glad you are seeking out your vets advice. Connemaras are very very smart and they can occasionally use it against you. We always said never teach them anything you dont want to see repeated. The bolting to me sounds like he learned something and to be honest your ride begins the minute you put a halter on him–thats your time not his. If he is misbehaving in hand on the ground he is not ready to be ridden. JM2C.

[candyappy]

@Bel

I agree with the others that ruling out pain is your first priority.

I am a firm believer that they do not act out like your mare is doing for no reason.

Lameness( even very subtle) , saddle fit, ulcers, dental issues , back / body soreness etc… Are all things that even professionals miss and just continue to work the horse and ask for more when doing so causes the horse pain.

No wonder they get reactive. It is the only way they can tell us something is wrong.

I wish @Lucky_shamrock had let us know what happened in the end?

[Bonnie2]

First - Connie’s can be tough little buggers. If you can keep working at it the first 10 years, you’ll have 25 more great years! Don’t assume there is a magic something that can be done that will make him perfect short term.

That said, I second the suggestion to turn him out in a herd where he will not be the dominant horse. He will learn respect easiest from another horse. I would not bring him home to be returned to the same situation. Where he is boss of the herd and your available time for training may be limited. Do consider a different trainer. Whatever the merits of the current one, the match isn’t working.

[Bonnie2]

Oops! Just saw how old the post was! Hope it all worked out!

[She_s_Pure_Gold]

I always wonder how these threads get ressurected! I’m friends with Lucky Shamrock IRL and she still has her boy, he’s doing amazing now! They’ve had their ups and downs but she’s stuck with him and he’s turning into a really nice sport horse. I’ll text her and see if she wants to provide an update herself.

[Lucky_shamrock]

Came here to post about my boy and saw this old thread had resurrected!

After a posted in 2020, I brought Finn home. Treated for ulcers and Lyme. Spent many hours watching Tristan Tucker’s methods, then restarted him myself at home with help from my dressage trainer. Until the fall, he had been doing fabulously, though progress has been slow, both because of my work/children/life commitments and lack of an indoor. He is essentially schooling training/first level dressage and started doing some small jumps this summer. He has never really stopped being sensitive/reactive, but we’d gotten to a point where I could trail ride him on my own WTC and feel pretty safe.

This fall, he changed into a completely different horse very similar how he was when I posted in 2020. What changed? He had a couple low key trips to my trainers this summer, and he was nervous but worked well there. I got a new saddle because he had outgrown his old one, but it’s been adjusted and checked by the fitter. We had also started asking for more undersaddle - sitting a bit more in the canter, baby lateral work - nothing I would consider hard for a 5yo. I have definitely babied him until this year and everything has been ever so quiet and low pressure. He has always bucked in the canter transition, left more than right, initially just baby kick outs, but as he has gotten stronger and more coordinated, those bucks have gotten bigger, though still rideable.

Checked for Lyme - negative. Trialed 10 days of gastroguard, no change. Changed his diet - maybe slightly better? Just had him seen by a performance horse vet, who thought perhaps hind gut ulcers and had me start him on misoprostol and sucralfate. She also wanted me to start him on trazodone, but I still don’t know how I feel about doing that as a bandaid. It’s only been a few days, but I haven’t noticed a difference. I do not know how this horse could possibly have ulcers given that he lives out in a herd 24/7 with free choice hay and just a ration balancer. He rarely travels, only my trainers and to vermont for a couple weekends away.

The vet did not do a lameness exam because he was just too reactive the day she saw him, but I have wondered if there is something musculoskeletal.

As @She_s_Pure_Gold and I often say, we really should just take up knitting.

[beowulf]

@Lucky_shamrock

I do not know how this horse could possibly have ulcers given that he lives out in a herd 24/7 with free choice hay and just a ration balancer. He rarely travels, only my trainers and to vermont for a couple weekends away.

Hate to break it to you that trailering is one of the leading causes of ulcers in sport/performance horses, not mismanagement, not poor feed, etc. Perhaps from your horse’s perspective, going to a trainer’s place for work was not low-key at all.

24/7 turnout and full choice hay/good herd is a great step in the right direction towards overall horse health but by no means does that excludehorses from developing ulcers. If they travel, have a physical issue, lyme, it can transpire the same as it would for a stalled horse.

Did you ever scope him to see what kind of ulcers you were dealing with?

Without a lameness exam and a scope it’s anyone’s guess. Those behaviors you mentioned in OP are still around; it’s really worth pursuing. It’s disappointing a horse could be so reactive you can’t even do something as basic a lameness exam; that’d be a big red flag to me something is going on and I hope you get to the bottom of it.

[candyappy]

Well I wish your update had ended as well as it started! Thanks for letting us know and I hope that once again you can figure out what is bothering him.

[4horses]

Hmm. I would wonder if he has pssm or one of the muscle myopathies? That can cause bucking and difficulty with the canter. Definitely seems like something is wrong and he’s trying to tell you that. I know someone was looking into muscle myopathies in the Connemara breed.

What is his bloodlines if you don’t mind sharing?

How often and consistently is he in work?

[Lucky_shamrock]

Hmm, that is an interesting thought.

Through the spring and summer, I was riding 3-5 days a week. I have wondered if he just needs more work, like 5-6 days a week, but between kids and work, plus taking care of our farm, it’s just not in the cards right now. He is turned out all day on pasture with water up at the barn, so the horses do a fair bit of back and forth.

He is by WH Topgun (Gunsmoke).

[4horses]

My colt is by Topgun and he’s an absolute pleasure to handle. I don’t think it would be his breeding then. Hmm… It could still be something physical. I would probably try Nexium for gastric ulcers and put him on it long term. My mare had ulcers and her behavior deteriorated very badly. She was super spooky and reactive and I didn’t figure it out until she colic’d.

Kissing spine has been ruled out? Hind gut ulcers?

It could be the new trainer or whoever is handling him. But from the way you describe him I’m still thinking it’s something physical. Especially the bucking into the canter. He is trying to tell you something is bothering him. From your description I can’t tell if this is physical or mental (unhappy with the original trainer or has residual fear issues).

I think you should keep investigating this. He seems like too good of a horse to give up on. Maybe consider taking him to a university and letting them do a lameness exam or whatever additional testing they suggest. Does he buck in the field or round pen?

Another thought… Because he’s part TB, he could just be a particularly sensitive horse that needs a softer approach in training.

[Lucky_shamrock]

Thanks. He was scoped in March 2020 and had healing non glandular ulcers (I had already started giving gastroguard 7 days prior to the scope). I decided to empirically treat this time because symptoms were so similar in presentation and because funds are low, but did not see any change after 10 days of treatment. I did keep him on Nexium for another 14 days.

I realize that trailering is a leading cause of ulcers. But this year, we’re talking twice to the trainers (10 min away) and once to vermont. So it’s not like we’re going to horse shows every weekend or hauling for hours at a time. He has always been a nervous horse - and so I have wondered whether he is trying to be a good boy, but internalizing all his fear and that leads to ulcers. Or maybe that is anthropomorphizing. Who knows.

For now, the plan is treat for ulcers, medicate with trazodone to settle him and keep him safe to ride, then lameness exam when he is mentally calmer.

[Lucky_shamrock]

Ahhh, another Topgun baby! What is the mare’s side? I would love to see pics if you feel like sharing! I will try to figure out how to share some of Finn on here!

He does need a softer ride - before him, I had been riding OTTBs, including his dam who is the ultimate hot, sensitive chestnut thoroughbred mare! So i am used to that. But he has been by far the hardest horse I’ve ever worked with, but my trainer assures me also the nicest. So there is hope! I am definitely a far better rider/trainer now because of him, so i feel lucky in that sense though it hasn’t been easy fighting the sudden sense of self preservation that I now seem to have discovered as a middle aged mom of two, haha. Thanks for your kind, thoughtful responses, I really appreciate it!

[4horses]

My Topgun colt is just turning 8 months old this week. He was almost a woolly mammoth with all that hair. My mare is grade but she’s about as easy going as they come. I’ve been taking him out on trail rides and ponying him along and he just follows along quietly. He can be a little nippy but I think he will outgrow that.

I’ve dealt with a lot of hotter breeds (arabians, saddlebreds, and thoroughbreds). It’s really nice to have something so laid back. My thoroughbred was very hot and she managed to toss me off every year. It was never intentional but she could spin bolt right out from under you.

I hope you figure something out for your boy. Definitely make sure he is getting enough exercise, as the more nervous types do seem to calm down with some miles under them.

[Blugal]

Sorry to hear of your troubles, OP.

I had some similar-sounding symptoms: the bucking into the canter transition, worse in one direction, and gradually going from occasional/mild to a year later, I was afraid to even ask for canter because it was severe (I even broke a finger once when she bucked).

I’d done the full Ulcergard ($1800) treatment, had all the feed stuff sorted, custom saddle, lameness exams with 2 vets. Finally I went to a third vet. He first of all didn’t really believe I had followed the protocol for the ulcer meds - the symptoms were so convincing that ulcers were the problem. But after being throughly quizzed, and because I’d done a 5 hour drive to get to his clinic and wasn’t leaving without some answers, I hoped, we continued the exam. He did x-rays, including neck, pelvis, kissing spine - nothing. Palpated all the lower legs, nothing. Ultrasounded her back especially the pelvis where she was palpating a bit sore. Still nothing.

He then suggested, as a sort of throw-away “well, you can pay $2,500 for an MRI (another trip to a different hospital) or you can do a couple extra hundred bucks for this idea I have, it might be nothing. Maybe we should ultrasound her pelvis from the inside.”

That’s what we did - and found moderate arthritis on the underside of her pelvis and in one joint of the pelvis. She was 8 years old, known by her breeder her entire life, no indication she’d ever been injured. But there it was. Vet guessed she might have slipped hard (mud or ice) at some point and stretched/strained/torn some soft tissue in that area.

I was so relieved when I found out what was wrong. I had been telling myself that I was just not catching a training issue, because I’d had 2 vets tell me she was fine physically, as well as coaches. Something to consider - your intuition is probably good, and don’t risk your health on a horse that’s giving these symptoms. I’ve also heard of weird diagnoses of neck arthritis, not sure if you have gone this far.

Wishing you the best.

[pony_grandma]

I had a young mare for sale that presented difficulties when ridden. Took her into state vet school. After full exam they 'finally ultra-sounded her ovaries and they looked like a 50’s snowy TV screen. Voila. They said take her home and wait until spring. Had her ultra sounded and she ‘just happened’ to be ovulating on that side! and was clear. But it blew her early sale. Had a hard time explaining, convincing, future buyers - with my full vet report and clear exam of all other possible problems … talk about a presale vet exam.

[Destinywaitsaturdoor]

I posted back in here when you originally posted about my young horse.

I ended up selling him to his leaser, they were doing well and then he started cross cantering and having behavioral issues again. He ended up having navicular and she also had his hocks injected. She ended up moving him to another barn and he went back to being his explosive self - even with 24/7 turn out. It got to the point she had spent so much money on vet bills, and she was in tears every time she handled him that she decided to sell him. A local trainer picked him up and that’s about the last we heard.

Maybe have his feet looked into? Navicular was the last thing on our list.