Combining 2 questions in one thread .
Sorry I am not the smartest on this kind of stuff, so here it goes:
If a horse is already on Sodium Zeolite and Sodium Bicarb, is there still any need to add tablesalt this time a year (to offset high potassium due to clover in pasture & fed alfalfa).
And secondly, if one is going to add digestive enzymes, could I use human vegan digestive enzymes caps instead of an equine product? I ask because so far seems most Eq Dig enzyme supplements come with saccharomyces cerevisiae and other probiotics. I do not wish to add more of such since he’s already on a SC + probiotic supplement,but one that does not contain digestive enzymes and I’d like to continue that one.
Or does saccharomyces cerevisiae already contain all needed digestive enzymes, since latter is often derived from SC?
Your horse is on probiotics to help with fermentation in the hind gut.
What part of the gut are you hoping to influence with enzymes? My understanding is that the small intestine works with enzymes and the hind gut works with bacteria. What enzymes are you wanting to add to the small intestine, and what enzymes are you finding in the human treatment?
I ask because I am only familiar with equine probiotics, for hind gut digestion. I havent heard about small intestine enzymes supplements for horses. And I would approach any health food supplement for humans with caution. It is possible that these supplements conflate enzymes with bacteria on the packaging.
If you do want to improve a horses digestion you should use equine products because their digestive systems are so different from human’s.
The small intestine digests protein and carbs and fats. If your horse is having trouble digesting these the best solution is to cut out grain and bagged feeds and just feed hay.
The large intestine (hind gut) digests fiber through fermentation and this is what probiotics targets.
Thank you scribbler. Sadly he has a bit of everything going on.
He had pyloric ulcers, were healed, but I wonder if back. He has slight delayed gastric emptying and he has hindgut acidosis.
He’s on pretty much no grain (some Blue Seal locarb), beetpulp, soaked alfalfa, TC alfa-lox and +/- 5 hrs pasture. His hay is soft western timothy that I steam for 4 hours and put in a 1,5 inch nibblebet, to mimimize consumption. His right dorsal colon was ultrasounded and fine, but I nevertheless wonder.
He’s gassy and uncomfortable when asked to work, he will only canter once he’s pooped himself empty. It clearly hurts him to get to that point, but once we had several poops, he’s a dream to ride.
He’s on Outlast, Succeed, Equishure, chia, Egusin and KKP fermentation metabolites/ saccharomyces cerevisiae.
My thinking for the digestive enzymes would be to speed up digestion and help digestion when the acidity in the stomach is quite high due to 4x/day dosing of Outlast. I guess stomach ph should be acidic for proper digestion of proteins etc, but when you alter that with buffers, I worry this may delay stomach emptying and cause undigested proteins to end up in the small intestine and cause something like leaky gut syndrome in humans.
He never had upper stomach ulcers and I am not worried about those at present.
Stools are more patty like vs fecal balls.
Spring grass hasn’t helped, nor has his stressy behavior, but that’s a catch 22 really.
You are probably right, might be too risky to play with human digestives. I’ll keep searching for a straight equine digestive enzyme supplement.
Hay is not primarily digested in the stomach or small intestine.
You might experiment with taking him right back to plain Timothy. Some horses don’t tolerate alfalfa well.
You are feeding a boatload of supplements aimed at the hind gut. What job are each of these doing, is there any overlap in function or ingredients, and what is your metric for whether these are working or not?
How do you understand hind gut acidosis and how was it diagnosed?
If you think he has stomach ulcers have him scoped and treat specifically if they are there.
I think too it will helpful for you to do some self education on the anatomy of the horse.
Nothing is absorbed in the stomach.
Proteins carbs and fats are absorbed in the small intestine.
Fiber is fermented in the large intestine. Excess carbs that aren’t digested in the small intestine can make it down to the large intestine and disrupt the microbe population, making it harder for the horse to digest his hay fiber.
Honestly my thought would be to cut him back off all supplements and feed other than free choice Timothy and pasture for a month and see what you have then. Feed him a flake of hay before you ride to buffer stomach acid and longe him before you ride until he poops.
I mean what you are doing now isn’t working, you are adding on more and more stuff that doesn’t seem to be helping, and you are unsure where the problem is.
At some point, in the absence of actual clinical diagnosis, you really need to go back to basics instead of just continuing to add more. Everything makes changes, and–especially with the multiple things you’re giving here acting on the gut–you just can’t know what’s actually happening versus what’s being caused by your supplements.
Hay, pasture, scope the stomach if you’re concerned. See what you have and start fresh.
Almost all of any OTC “digestive enzymes” fed to an animal are reduced to peptides in the stomach and do little to facilitate digestion in the small intestine.
Thank you all
Yes too many supplements, I agree on that. No more Egusin and thinking of stopping Outlast & Succeed as well, but continue with Equishure & C Cervisae and just plain glutamine.
True, hay is fermented in the gut, but I am worried about right dorsal irritation, hence I’d prefer him on a 2nd cut grass hay, but I’m unable to find this at present. The softest hay I found was 2nd cut western timothy.
Indeed, the alfafa might be too coarse or may just not sit well with him.
At the hospital, stool & bloodtest. Treatment was misoprostol & sulcrafate for both his pyloric ulcers and hindgut problem, meds healed his pyloric ulcers nicely and he tested negative for the hindgut acidosis after treatment, but the poopy problem under saddle remained, for a while it went a little better but now got back quite badly.
Sure, I understand, it’s just from my personal experience, too little acid in the stomach or too high ph in the stomach, doesn’t break down protein as well, so large unbroken protein particles travel to the small intestine and can be absorbed in the bloodstream (causing leaky gut & sibo). The stomach is acidic for a reason, being breaking down the foods we eat before entering the intestines, hence I was wondering if feeding Outlast round the clock keeping his stomach ph close to neutral, hampers the break down of food before travelling into the intestines.
Sadly no lunging allowed, he had a traumatic incident in the past. I am experimenting with a short trailride prior to ringwork, however the poopy-issue is mostly at the trot & canter warm-up, not at the walk.
I like Pureform’s other products but that label makes no sense.
It says it supports stomach microflora. There aren’t significant microflora in the stomach. There is acid in the stomach. Then it gives a list of things it calls both enzymes and preb
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹iotics. My understanding is that prebiotics are aimed at the hindgut/ large intestine to support the work of probiotics. The large intestine is where you have microflora.
You do realize that it’s the job of the small intestine to digest protein? That’s where protein is broken down. Also since protein is so low in horse diets, they don’t usually have a problem with protein that into isn’t digested getting into the
”‹”‹”‹large intestine. But excess sugar and carbs getting into the large intestine
”‹”‹”‹can be a problem if they aren’t fullt digested in the small intestine because they disrupt the large intestine microflora.
The last time I checked, leaky gut syndrome was said to affect the large intestine but the jury was still out on whether it is a real thing or not.
I do agree that if you are feeding something that reduced stomach acid it could impact the rest of digestion. But I don’t see where you are doing this now that the stomach ulcers are cured and you have stopped ulcer medication presumably. Anyhow yes if something in your cocktail of supplements is meant to reduce stomach acid, cut it out.
Thanks for taking the time to look at that supplement Scribbler!
I was also wondering about what they were stating there, prebiotics are indeed for the hindgut. I think they got their description all wrong.
True, it’s not like horses get large amounts of protein, however when on grass, it’s often difficult to have an idea what they are ingesting protein-wise. I suspect with him being on western timothy & alfalfa, he gets more than enough protein, but since virtually no grain, hopefully that’ll balance it out.
Same with the starches.
In humans leaky gut & sibo go hand in hand and it’s a small intestine problem. I know many vets question such is a condition in horses. Until we have better scoping options over a larger amount of horses, (ie camera pill that travels thru the entire tract), we won’t know what exactly happens in the small intestine, ulcerwise. Many a vet still don’t believe there’s something like hindgut acidosis, my vet is a disbeliever, but the surgeon at the hospital is all on board about the existence of it.
Indeed, no more meds at present, however I still feed Outlast (been on it for over a year non-stop!) and that raises the stomach ph for 6 hours, he gets it 4x a day, so essentially his stomach is never acidic, hence wondering how this may affect the digestion further down the line.
Another thing I am looking into is his Platinum Performance Steady (trigemenial nerve headshaking) supplement, started this 2 weeks ago. It contains a rather large amount of boron, and boron is said to enhance absorption of magnesium. Outlast is Mg & Ca, whether enhanced absorption of Mg is a contribution factor in his looser stools I don’t know. I may put in a call to Platinum Performance and see what they say.
He sounds like a candidate to go to a no long stem forage diet for a while and see if you can get things to quiet down. Well-soaked hay cubes might be ok, which will help keep cost down a little, but I wouldn’t go longer fiber than that.
I’m pretty sure hind gut acidosis has been proven, but I’d have to go searching for what I think I remember finding.
Unless you have proven stomach ulcers which are big/bad/numerous enough to likely be causing issues, I would stop anything that raises stomach pH as well. Not only is that possibly contributing to delayed emptying, it is likely negatively affecting the hind gut.
So, I’d go to an elimination diet, and go one step further with no forage longer stem than hay cubes, and see what happens. I would use Triple Crown Senior at whatever amount you need to keep weight on with the amount of hay cubes you feed. It’s got a very good hind gut support package in it with butyric acid and buffered zinc.
I would say that if you are worried about too much protein then eliminate the alfalfa. I doubt any horse is going to get high protein from Timothy and pasture grass. As far as protein in the grain you need to look at the label and see what it says.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹I am happy to see JB chiming in also recommending a back to basics elimination diet, although even more stringent than my suggestion. JB always has informed useful nutrition advice.
I would also suggest making sure the horse has hay on his stomach before you ride as that helps buffer stomach acid that splashes around with movement.
Ok, it looks like “hind gut acidosis” is the current term for the die off in hindgut flora after too many carbs get into the hindgut. That’s a real thing. I didn’t realise they were the same thing.
“Leaky gut syndrome” is not recognized by mainstream medical researchers in humans. It is a term that has come out of alternative medicine and the supplement industry.
I have no idea if it will do much, or anything, but there’s just so much thrown at this horse, so many guesses as to what’s wrong (glad though the RDC ultrasounds clean), so sometimes you just need a total reset. You definitely could go back the typical reset of just long-stem fiber - grass is better than hay since there’s all that water with it but hay will suffice. I had only considered just hay cubes, if that, since there the mention of “resting” the hind gut, and to do that, the truly long-stem fiber needs to go for a while.
I 100% believe LGS exists in horses. Why can’t it? They have all the same stuff we do, have the same (or “same” ) requirements as all mammals in keeping a healthy intestinal lining intact, so I don’t quite understand how someone can just dismiss out of hand even the possibility of a breach.
It’s my understanding that SIBO (which is the cause of LG) is fairly accepted in western medicine nowadays, at least my gastro, who is not alternative, tests for it in presumptive cases and insurance pays for diagnostic & treatment (antibiotic etc)., but very few people actually now this exists, most are familiar or have heard of IBS, IBD, Crohn’s, Celiac etc, but SIBO is not much spoken off as of yet.
These are the different human versions of SIBO: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/diseases_conditions/small_large_intestine/small-intestinal-bacterial-overgrowth.html
But sure, in horses it’s still a difficult topic, personally like JB, I also see no reason why SIBO/LGS would not be existent in horses, just because no one has ever looked into it.
Thanks JB always good to hear from you.
The long stem fiber is indeed what worries me with regards to possibly irritating the right dorsal colon, even though the ultrasound was clear, however that just means it’s not thickened or no full blown colitis; but if irritated, how would one know, we’re all just guessing, no diagnostic for such. If a stool test comes back positive for albumin/blood, we have no idea where in the colon this indicates to be a problem.
My surgeon said in some cases, they really have no way of knowing unless one does exploratory surgery, which is not recommended by far.
So since I can’t get any soft grass hay at present, I"m stuck with the next best thing so to speak, being feeding less of the long stem hay and steaming or maybe soaking it.
The hay cubes are a very good idea, I can do those during the day easily and get him re-plenished several times, at night is a different problem, I do not want him to go longer than 2 hrs without anything in the stomach or I"ll risk getting in even worse trouble, so for night time I see no other option but a small holed haynet (if I wish to keep my sleep, lol)
Exactly, but in all the time I have owned him, he has never been without hay in front of him, and Outlast was designed (lots of research went into this product) specifically to be fed just prior to a ride to ensure no matter what splashes in the stomach (hay or no hay) the contents remains neutral. I’ve gone further than that and been feeding it every 6 hours. Hay will only buffer for 30 mins, Outlast buffers for 6 hours. But despite this he got pyloric ulcers, never any squamous ulcers. The surgeon said, because of my good management he had no upper stomach ulceration, it was very clean.
And then there’s his stresslevels (mostly inward)… this may well be the main culprit of his ulcery problem, he’s a heashaker, how much pain this causes him, how much internal stress… how does this affect his digestive track, I don’t know.
The headshaking goes in phases, he can be without for a while and then it’s back, I suspect this indirectly affects his digestive tract. :sadsmile:
.
