Digging up Stumps and then using as a Backfilll???

[Dressage59]

 I'll try to keep this long story on the shorter side. We're on flood plain and want to have about 100 beetle-infested pines removed from a pen, to include taking up the stumps. The idea is to use this pen for horses and right now so many trees are dead back there, that it's dangerous. The rationale behind removing the stumps was that I didn't want them rotting in the ground and then have one of the horses hurt themselves by stepping in a hole. So the company I was working with can no longer do the project due to a family emergency. My heart goes out to the family. 
 So now I'm back to holding site visits. One company suggested that he take the entire tree up, then cut the stump off and put the stump upside down in the hole it came from. I haven't heard of this before, but he said he did it for a woman that was clearing a pasture. 

The idea makes me a little nervous. The county wont let me bring in fill dirt even though my elevation will be lower after the stumps are removed than what it currently is now. Will you share your thoughts on this? Frankly, I’m probably happier either burning the stumps or paying to have them hauled off.
Thanks in advance!

[4LeafCloverFarm]

I think I’d have them bring in a chipper, and stuff the holes with the “mulch” (and I mean really pack them - use a square metal pounder/stamper). Then add more if a sunken area forms. Upside down stumps would look odd and be a tripping hazard IMO.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

Tamper - that’s the word I was looking for! Not square metal pounder thingy! :lol:

[mmeqcenter]

4leaf’s suggestion sounds like the best idea, since you can’t bring in fill dirt. Have someone with a mulcher make your own fill from the removed trees.

[Dressage59]

I wasn’t very clear - probably just trying to be too short. From what he said, he stump would be turned upside down, placed in the hole and dirt tamped on top with this heavy equipment (one guy said he would use a backhoe and the other said he would use an excavator). It’s rolling around in my head whether chipping first and then backfilling with that would work. Chips tend to act like a sponge and we’re on flood plain. I can imagine the area eventually caving in. I’m not sure how deep he could place the stump and then backfill with dirt as I know that will eventually decay, but will probably take years. It still makes me a little nervous. Thanks for the thoughts!

[RedgateFarm]

As someone who is dealing with sinkholes in the pasture from stumps not removed 20 years ago I would burn them or use them as a creative barrier/Wall. We’ve got at least 6 low spots that at least I can see but we have had two holes appear suddenly after crazy rain. It’s super nerve wracking. I suppose it depends on how long you plan on staying at the property.

[Simkie]

You have horses? Use your composted manure to fill.

[NancyM]

In our situation with dead pines, the root system is very superficial. If they are already good and dead, they come out pretty easy, and burn well. There is not a great big hole left. This is a job I would tackle without hiring an excavation company, unless you are talking about a large acreage. How large are the trees?

Just cut the dead trees down, cut them up for firewood (for your own use or for sale), and knock the stumps out with a tractor bucket, pile them and burn them along with the branches. If you don’t have a tractor of your own, you may still be able to get stumps out by hand, or you may choose to hire this job out.

Since the root system is so superficial, if the trees are very dead and partially rotted, they will either fall over on their own, or can be pushed over if they are small enough, again with a tractor. This pulls the stump and root system out for you. OR, you can cut the stump off at ground level, and the superficial spreading half rotten roots cause no issues. I have done all these things on our property with dead pine and dead spruce. Just did two dead spruce the other day, in fact! Big ones. Filled those holes with composted manure, one tractor bucket filled the small hole.

[gumtree]

What is the average diameter and height of the trees? What species of pine?

Are they completely dead and if so how long have they been standing dead?

Or are they just blighted, showing signs of dying? I am very familiar with “beetle kill”.

Is there a creek,stream near by?

Being on a flood plane can and does add extra bureaucratic, EPA hoops to jump through if brought to their attention. These agency’s have “one size fits all” policies, rules and regs. At times they can be absolutely absurd. Add unwarranted huge expense.

The Fed/State rules generally kick in when you “disturb” X square feet of dirt. 100 trees of various size is a pretty large project.

Each state has different rules and regs for “clear cutting”. Ag friendly states can generally be more realist and easier to work with. The definition of clear cutting and how the property owner can go about things should be found on the State’s website.

[clanter]

The county wont let me bring in fill dirt even though my elevation will be lower after the stumps are removed than what it currently is now.

can you bulldoze the field and re-level after the trees and stumps are removed?

Otherwise just what does the county officials recommend? Is there provision for seeking a variance of their rules?.. and whatever that recommendation is get it writing

It appears that you might be able bulldoze level as long as you do not increase the elevation of the land…

“No Rise” Certification. see page 48 of attached Quick Guide prepared by the Floodplain Management Office of the Georgia Department of Natural Resources

https://epd.georgia.gov/sites/epd.georgia.gov/files/related_files/site_page/GA_Quick_Guide_2015.pdf

[Jim_in_PA]

It’s never a good idea to bury stumps and other tree debris…they will decompose and you’ll end up with a worse situation than you have now.

[TCA_Arabians]

Guessing the county rule is to ensure you don’t exacerbate a runoff condition in the flood plain. Has the county done a site visit? If not, request one so they can see the situation directly. Have you read the county regs yourself or are you relying on another person’s interpretation? Flood plains can also have federal regs to deal with.

Putting a stump upside-down in a hole makes zero sense to me. But, hey … you learn something new every day. It reminds me of the guy that told me he needed to cut the bottom off a sliding, closet door that was sticking. It needed new rollers!

You can use manure to fill the holes. I do that here. But, you have to keep using it over time as it breaks down and I don’t use it in corrals, turnouts where horses walk as it will compress.

Are you certain the trees are dead? I’ve left stumps that continued to grow. Hope you have a fireplace! I also use logs from trees we’ve cut for flower pot stands.

[Ghazzu]

@Jim_in_PA

It’s never a good idea to bury stumps and other tree debris…they will decompose and you’ll end up with a worse situation than you have now.

This.
You will end up with sinkholes.
It is illegal in some places to bury stumps as backfill.

[Dressage59]

@RedgateFarm That is exactly what I’m afraid of happening. As a side joke, I’ve said that every bit of compost I have is going into that pen! Of course, it would take me years just to break even as I use pellets. Some of the storms have been pretty nasty. This is our final resting place. Thanks so much!

[Dressage59]

@Simkie That’s a great idea! I’ve only been here a little over a year and I don’t have much. Thanks to pellets!

[Dressage59]

@NancyM I really like the idea of using the compost. We have about 100 trees, only about 16 are dead and all are beetle infested. The trees themselves are about 100 feet tall, more than we can easily take down. Our tractor is 33HP and we have a grapple, but that leaves some balance issues and a lot of digging.
@gumtree I don’t know the average diameter of the trees, but height is about 100 feet tall. The land is flat and we had the county come out to assist us with the creek and give us ideas. USDA also came out. The land is flat and we already have a county-issued permit to take the stumps out, here it’s called a land disturbance permit. The creek is right there and we had to put a double line of wire-reinforced silt fencing 25 feet from the creek. I was initially told 50 feet and the soil erosion guy came out (he has horses too) and let me have 25. Can’t thank him enough. I have so many pictures of those trees, it’s ridiculous! Huge holes, sap, piles of sawdust at the bottom. The Co-Op Office said they didn’t know if the beetles moved in because the trees were already dying or if the trees were dying because the beetles moved in. I’m right next to 19 acres of green space and I’m sure that area is infested. I basically told the storm water guy that I would end up with a lower elevation if I couldn’t backfill my stumps and he just looked at me. I head from another contractor that someone else couldn’t backfill either.
@clanter Thanks for the reg site; I’ll read it and see what I can do.
@Jim_in_PA @Ghazzu I totally agree with you. I came right in the house and posted on COTH. I feel so much better now.

Thanks everyone! I had just not heard of this practice and didn’t know if fit was common.

[fordtraktor]

No way. Pile and burn the stumps (carefully of course!)

[Simkie]

@Dressage59

@Simkie That’s a great idea! I’ve only been here a little over a year and I don’t have much. Thanks to pellets!

The obvious answer here is to buy more horses

[NancyM]

@Dressage59

@NancyM I really like the idea of using the compost. We have about 100 trees, only about 16 are dead and all are beetle infested. The trees themselves are about 100 feet tall, more than we can easily take down. Our tractor is 33HP and we have a grapple, but that leaves some balance issues and a lot of digging.

Thanks everyone! I had just not heard of this practice and didn’t know if fit was common.

If I were you, I’d just do the trees that are currently dead right now. Leave the rest of them until they die, then look after them. Spread the work out over the number of years it takes before they all die. Horses like a good grove of trees to stand in. Just take the lower branches off the living trees to open the area up, so no one pokes an eye out, and it becomes a “summer barn”, shade in hot weather, shelter if it r-ains.

Your tractor is the same size as mine, but I have no grapple, just a bucket and a cargo strap. But with trees of this size, that is too big for a tractor like this to push them over (IME). But you can drop them with a chain saw, and give the stump a nudge with the tractor, if it is rotten enough, it will come out. If it isn’t rotten enough, cut it again at ground level, and it will decompose in time- roots are superficial enough that it won’t be an issue with making a sink hole.

You will get better at taking trees down, with some practice!

[TCA_Arabians]

You might call in an arborist to see if any of the trees can be saved.