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Dilute Brown Color Question

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

Hoping JB might be able to answer my color question. :wink: I have posted about this filly before. She is our yearling Section D Welsh Cob filly. I’m 99% sure she is a dilute brown, not buckskin. https://www.facebook.com/daventryequestrian/photos/a.384845797524.168554.78309977524/10154202641482525/?type=3&theater Here are additional photos showing she has no black points, only brown. http://daventryequestrian.com/whatsupbuttercupphotos.html

Below is a close up photo of her tail. I love it! Is it possible that her tail will stay this color…or will it eventually darken up? What do you think JB?
https://lynnnovayphotography.smugmug.com/Texas-Rose-Horse-Park-TRHP/WPCSA-Texas-Rose-Breed-Show-11/WPCSA-Welsh-Texas-Rose-Breed/i-BDDzNCw/L

#2

Gorgeous! She’s still at the age where baby flaxen is still possible, and if that’s it, it will go away :frowning:

But she’s also at an age where it’s more likely to stay, and may well be some Gulastra Plume.

#3

She absolutely looks Smoky Brown to me for sure …

Smoky Brown will have as many shade variations as buckskin, palomino, chestnut, bay, etc will so one horse may be lighter or darker than another will

Here are some of my Smoky Browns - its my absolute favorite dilute colour with the rich gold overlay over the dappled brown buckskin base coat … :slight_smile:

Rosalie’s Gold as a yearling …

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b5/e7/39/b5e7395cbbde8f2b2c55ffe8d1c2eeb7.jpg

Carter - owned by Sue Leone - smoky brown TB gelding …

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209103068711141&set=a.3824718853766.2146691.1151598745&type=3

And the fabulous Faux Finish TB mare as a 2 year old who I really think was smoky brown and not a “buttermilk buckskin” as she was called …

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/fotos_kennel/7/787_2big.jpg

#4

[QUOTE=JB;8953848]

But she’s also at an age where it’s more likely to stay, and may well be some Gulastra Plume.[/QUOTE]

I was hoping you would say that. I have been wondering for awhile if she has a Plume tail. That would be the icing on the cake! :smiley:

#5

Sorry if it’s a dumb question, but what’s the difference between a buckskin and a smokey brown?

Nice nice ponies/horses!

#6

Not a dumb question at all. Up until a few years ago, horses were thought to have three base coat colors - chestnut, bay or black.

Chestnut with the addition of the cream gene, also known as the single dilute gene, makes the coat palomino. A double dilute on top of a chestnut coat becomes cremello.

Black with the addition of the single dilute gene makes the coat smoky black. A double dilute on top of a black coat becomes smoky cream.

Buckskin is a bay horse with the single dilute gene. Double dilute on top of a bay coat becomes perlino.

Recently, the brown gene was discovered…though many of us have known about it for many years. :wink: It is basically a bay coat with NO black points. Only brown points. That makes four base coat colors - chestnut, bay, black and brown.

Our filly in the photos above clearly has a base coat color of brown + cream gene = brown dilute or smoky brown. I don’t think anyone has “officially” named the color for brown + single dilute or brown + double dilute yet. Unfortunately, there is no good test yet for the brown gene…so I can only theorize that she is a brown dilute and not a buckskin. :wink:

#7

Sorry to hijack, but slightly related.
My horse is bay, but has some flaxen in his tail. He is a 2 1/2 year old Holsteiner by Cunningham. Does this mean the flaxen will probably stay?? It has gotten darker as he’s aged, but I would love it if it stayed!
I don’t have any great recent photos, but here are a couple to give you an idea:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154468629412359&set=pb.713977358.-2207520000.1480466224.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154468629292359&set=pb.713977358.-2207520000.1480466224.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154445218577359&set=pb.713977358.-2207520000.1480466224.&type=3&theater

ETA: He very may well be brown and not bay now that I have read the entirety of Daventry’s post above. His mane appears black, but the points on his legs are dark brown.

#8

It looks like he has a gulastra plume tail, so will not go away. Cute horse!

FYI, I know a couple of other bay Holsteiners from the Capitol I line that also have plume tails…so wonder if there is a genetic component there.

#9

It is a bit hard to tell without it unbraided, but I think it’s baby flaxen still, especially since it’s getting darker. GP wouldn’t be getting darker.

He’s beautiful! I think he’s bay.

Sadly, the brown test was called into question because of some strange results, and now it appears Pet DNA (the only place with the brown test, and who was working on trying to resolve the issue) is now out of business :frowning: I don’t know if anyone else has picked up looking for brown :frowning:

#10

Thank you both! I really love him. He’s my first homebred.

I found a few that sort of show his tail without it braided:
http://s678.photobucket.com/user/aheimann_photos/media/Cohen%20Tail_zps9xrmztc5.jpg.html?sort=6&o=5
http://s678.photobucket.com/user/aheimann_photos/media/Cohen%20Trot%20Tail_zpst8n5hut7.png.html?sort=6&o=8

There are light hairs that go all the way to the root, so it gives me hope!

Here is a photo from a year ago for comparison: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153695453302359&set=pb.713977358.-2207520000.1480468838.&type=3&theater

It’s much less flaxen than Daventry’s beautiful filly!

Also, speaking of a genetic component, the stallion Carrico is bay with the flaxen tail. His damsire is Capitol II, not I. But he also has Silvester in his pedigree, which I found interesting. My boy’s dam is from the Silvester line. I think he would be a cool cross on my mare for the next one!

#11

Daventry - GORGEOUS…breeding please? Must live vicariously through you LOL…

#12

It’s definitely looking more like baby flaxen - which can persist for several years, and does darken - than GP

#13

[QUOTE=exvet;8954076]
Daventry - GORGEOUS…breeding please? Must live vicariously through you LOL…[/QUOTE]

Thanks! We just love her to pieces. Quietest, non-spooky, most laid back pony ever! She is out of our Section D Welsh Cob mare Ranlan Rhiannon by *Trevallion Royal Consort and out of the mare Canterbrook Legacie (retired jumper), who we owned for a few years and is also super laid back, same with the filly’s dam. The sire, well, I personally didn’t care for him and thought he should be a gelding at best. Not our choice for stallions…we bought the mare already bred. :wink: The sire passed away as a three year old, so this filly is his only offspring. Although points haven’t been updated yet, she has enough points for Reserve U.S. National Champion Section D filly this year. It says a lot about what the dam can produce. :wink: Her colt this year, by our stallion Goldhills Brandysnap, is breathtaking and was Premium Foal at his RPSI inspection. We are hoping to do an embryo transfer with the brown dilute filly in the spring with Brandysnap. You can see her full pedigree here: www.daventryequestrian.com/whatsupbuttercup.html

#14

Thank you for the info. Tells me where she got her color.

I understand completely about invaluable mares/dam lines. As I get older, I’m even more ‘beholding’ to such horse flesh since next spring I’m set to back/start another three year old. I’m still the test dummy here at age 53; but, at least I know how to keep the odds in my favor :wink:

I’ll be looking forward to seeing what you get with the proposed cross.

#15

[QUOTE=exvet;8954135]
Thank you for the info. Tells me where she got her color.[/QUOTE]

Yes, her sire was also a brown dilute. She’ll show in hand next year and then we hope to get her into the dressage ring the year after.

#16

[QUOTE=JB;8954096]
It’s definitely looking more like baby flaxen - which can persist for several years, and does darken - than GP[/QUOTE]

Oh, darn. Thanks for the info!

#17

Technically there are only 2 base colors. Black and red. Bay and brown are both carried on the agouti gene, and modify a black based coat. Wild bay is another version of the agouti gene. It causes minimal black points. Those “bay” horses whose black points only go up to their fetlocks, and maybe a splash of black on the knee.

Fun Fact, the ancestors of the modern horse were all bay, non-agouti is the mutation, and it was mostly likely the first color mutation in horses. Red being the second one we can track. It is hypothesized that ancient equines were also all dun, but the non-dun gene mutation hadn’t been isolated at the time of the study so there is no real evidence.

#18

[QUOTE=Twisting;8954386]
Technically there are only 2 base colors. Black and red. [/QUOTE]

Yes, I know. But when trying to explain the simplistic version of equine color genetics to individuals that are new to it, throwing in that there are two base pigments makes things really confusing. :wink:

#19

[QUOTE=JB;8954023]

Sadly, the brown test was called into question because of some strange results, and now it appears Pet DNA (the only place with the brown test, and who was working on trying to resolve the issue) is now out of business :frowning: I don’t know if anyone else has picked up looking for brown :([/QUOTE]

JB is correct. There are currently no tests for brown. Certain color people would call your colt sooty buckskin because brown “doesn’t exist” (because of no testing). I agree he looks brownskin :wink:

#20

[QUOTE=Twisting;8954386]
Technically there are only 2 base colors. Black and red. Bay and brown are both carried on the agouti gene, and modify a black based coat. Wild bay is another version of the agouti gene. It causes minimal black points. Those “bay” horses whose black points only go up to their fetlocks, and maybe a splash of black on the knee.

Fun Fact, the ancestors of the modern horse were all bay, non-agouti is the mutation, and it was mostly likely the first color mutation in horses. Red being the second one we can track. It is hypothesized that ancient equines were also all dun, but the non-dun gene mutation hadn’t been isolated at the time of the study so there is no real evidence.[/QUOTE]

Go and argue that on the Equine color genetics page. OMG they will turn inside out. Bases are black, red and bay because of agouti locus and ancestors according to them

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