Dipped back

I would like to see some video of her working with the trainer. Long and low is not always the same as reaching to the bit. In general gadgets and shoes will not help posture unless horse is lame in the footing currently worked in and mincing.

I would take her out and ride on trails.

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Long and low is a stretching position, not a working outline. That is part of what helps muscles be supple while also being strong, but it’s just a small part of what creates the proper muscling

That should be between you, your farrier, and your trainer. Many horses are very happy barefoot, especially at this level of work. IME, most often if there’s a traction or confidence issue, it comes from the hind feet, so at that point you’d want 4 shoes on. But nothing so far points to any of that, since we don’t yet really know how correctly she’s actually working :slight_smile:

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IMVHO, the trot video is of a leg mover, there’s no hind end engagement, she’s not even tracking hind feet to the front prints, much less in front of them. Her back is a little long, but not long enough to be a reason for that.

The first video some some canter, is also not an engaged canter.

The 3rd video is a horse moving fast, on her forehand, no engagement

In other words, while this can look pretty because of the leg movement and the tucked in face, there’s no engaged body working properly.

All that means - more basic work is needed to teach this horse hind end engagement, and that’s really a common problem with horses built like this - built to pull a carriage.

She needs to slow down, do a ton of transitions, more lateral work, not a lot of actual canter work for a while just transitions into and out of it

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Yes. Typical pretty Friesian false frame with no hind end engagement.

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Thanks for sharing the videos! Makes everything so much more clear. I agree with the others that this horse can benefit from a lot more of the “basics”, but I would argue less about hind leg engagement at this stage, and more that this horse needs to learn to engage her core and lift her back first. Mechanically, I don’t see any way this horse can get the hind legs under with that pelvic tilt and collapsed core in the way. Engaging the core will fix the incorrect tilt of the pelvis, which will allow the hind legs come under more.

Again, Simon Cocozza’s book will take this to the extreme stretch that this horse needs to work in until her back is stronger. Step 1 is to stretch the back, lift the abdomen, and engage the core, and step 2 is to work her this way in this stretch - leg yields and shoulder-ins with her nose down around the height of the upper part of the foreleg (stretching, not curling!). If done correctly, the lateral work in this position will give the horse no choice but to engage the core and strengthen this key area. From there, you have started to fix the pelvis, which can then allow the hind legs to start coming under more (thereby getting more engagement).

I don’t see any way this horse is strong enough to engage the hindquarters properly with her back as weak as it is. I would focus on the abdomen and back for now, then when that is stronger, you can get the hindquarters more under. Baby steps :slight_smile:

And it’s not linear - both should/will happen in a step-wise fashion, but if you can only focus on one, I would focus on the back at first. The horse’s hind legs are plenty active, and once the back is lifted, I think engagement should come fairly easily.

(caveat, I’m not a trainer or a bodyworker. Just someone that has owned and competed friesians and warmbloods in dressage, and someone who has recently dealt with a KS diagnosis in a horse with a tendency to move inverted but was still scoring really well at the FEI levels, so I’ve gotten really familiar with back and core health literature! Take my advice with a grain of salt!)

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I would add, quit motoring around is important.
Work on slow and clear request for the horse to start to learn a different/better way of going as explained above.
Don’t practice what you don’t want the horse to do, the new goals should be what to work for, starting with the very basic of relaxing the way of going and starting to stretch and then using it’s back correctly back from the stretch.
That remodeling of the way of going will take months and should be done considering is going to be hard for the horse.
Do not overwork if the horse is showing being confused at any step and causing resistances to crop up, is a learning process for horse AND rider.
Once both have those concepts on board, you will have a happy, relaxed horse and a rider that will know how to feel and help any horse it ever rides afterward, is a great skill to develop for any rider.

OP, if you could find a way to get a few lessons on an old schoolmaster where you can experience those concepts it would make teaching them much simpler.

We have all of us been there when we start and is a wonderful journey.
Those are the basic way of going dressage builds on, for horses and riders to best develop a way of working together on any other task, the goal of dressage as a training method.

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One thing I see in the videos is her back is TIGHT. No movement there at all.

Lower, more “training level” frame, lift the back, don’t sit her trot until she’s supple and “up” through it. Sitting right now, unless you’re Charlotte Dujardin, is encouraging the hollow movement.

Adding - this is going to take a loooong time to fix.

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It’s going to take a long time for sure - OP is working against their horse’s natural build here (but so many of us are!).

However, it’s SO worth it. 6 months, a year, two years from now, if done correctly, this horse will look so different it’ll be startling. Take progress pics!

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Totally agree! And OP, in a year you’ll be amazed how that jackhammer canter will transform into a big, round, bouncy canter that you will love.

You’re at a disadvantage due to the breed, but the good news is you’ll come out of this experience with a great education and find warmbloods to be downright easy!

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Yes! I just simplified things with “hind end engagement” because yes, it’s the end result of whole-core engagement.

The horse IS strong enough to engage her hind end…for a few strides at a time. And that gets stronger as a result of doing lots of the things you list. A good trainer should know how to teach any horse how to work on all that.

100%
Every step has to be purposeful and working to be as correct as it can be for the level of training - mental knowledge as well as physical fitness. She can’t be allowed to practice the incorrect stuff, such as motoring around in any gait.

This may mean that rides for a month or 2 might only be 20 minutes working at the walk with a little trot, because it’s going to be HARD to do the right work to create the strength and balance that’s needed.

And I totally agree that all trot should be rising for now. Over time the trot can be sat, especially in the few strides leading to a canter transition, but for the next few months, rising trot, with some sitting check-ins to see how well she’s taking the movement and not collapsing her back.

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The current work as shown will not develop a differently muscled back. Friesians, as stated unthread, are predisposed to this disconnected, hollow-backed mode of movement. It’s a holdover from the driving horse days, and the sport horse oriented inspectors are directing the breed away from this.

While clearly willing to work, this girl needs to learn to stretch to the bit, with the nose reaching out, as apposed to long, low and deep. I agree that caveletti and hillwork will help…and that sitting on such a dropped back is counterproductive.

Shoes will do little to help the specific issue mentioned in OP, it may be useful for other reasons. Best determined by vet and Shoer.

This is it long term project of remodeling, so patience is required. The back must release first, before the core can engage. Investigate all the resources mentioned upthread, and I’ve found that good groundwork/in hand work is very helpful. But you have to have good instruction…if the posture of the horse remains hollow backed/round neck during the in hand work…it won’t work.

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Thank you everyone for this great advice.

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