Would you consider the main cause of dirty stopping a physical issue? Would you consider a dirty stopper a dangerous jumper? Opinions?
Could be mental, could be physical, could be a little of both… yes, I consider a dirty stopper to be dangerous.
Could be mental, could be physical, could be a little of both… yes, I consider a dirty stopper to be dangerous.
^This
Could be mental or physical. Yes dangerous. I don’t ride horses that do this. They need a new job IMO.
Yes, dangerous. And could be mental, physical, or a combination of both. I’d never ride one — on the flat, sure, but not over fences.
Probably a little of both. Horse gets pushed or overfaced and learns to dread the jumps. Or horse has a wreck and gets hurt coming back scared. Or horse flat hurts when it rocks back to take off. Bad riding, bad saddle fit. Pounding too many jumps into them. These thing all will get a horse stopping but not necessarily create a dirty stopper.
Horse knows just stopping well back or not going to the fence just results in getting spurred and smacked. Horse can learn if it acts like it’s going to the jump with ears up then slams the brakes on at the base while dropping neck and shoulder? Rider is history. But horse also bangs into the fence and that usually prevents most of them from turning dirty.
Dirty stoppers usually go right into the fence- and do not care. Normally a horse that stops swings one way or the other so they don’t hurt themselves or stops well back. Not the dirty stopper who just does not care if it hurts them.
I feel sorry for them, they don’t start that way. But once a horse loses their sense of self preservation? The are not safe to work with. They are in the same category as the true rearer and those who don’t mind slamming themselves into arena walls just to get rid of the rider.
I leased a dirty stopper in the past (knew about the issues beforehand, but thought we could help him). Could go in one day and go around fine and win every class, and the next day couldn’t get over the first jump or vise versa (the “I’m going to jump it” then slide to a stop). Hack winner every time. His stopping issues were purely mental. So, as mentioned above, it can be either. Yes, it’s dangerous. If it’s a mental thing, they shouldn’t be jumping. IMO, it’s just not fair to the horse.
[QUOTE=findeight;7108564]
Probably a little of both. Horse gets pushed or overfaced and learns to dread the jumps. Or horse has a wreck and gets hurt coming back scared. Or horse flat hurts when it rocks back to take off. Bad riding, bad saddle fit. Pounding too many jumps into them. These thing all will get a horse stopping but not necessarily create a dirty stopper.
Horse knows just stopping well back or not going to the fence just results in getting spurred and smacked. Horse can learn if it acts like it’s going to the jump with ears up then slams the brakes on at the base while dropping neck and shoulder? Rider is history. But horse also bangs into the fence and that usually prevents most of them from turning dirty.
Dirty stoppers usually go right into the fence- and do not care. Normally a horse that stops swings one way or the other so they don’t hurt themselves or stops well back. Not the dirty stopper who just does not care if it hurts them.
I feel sorry for them, they don’t start that way. But once a horse loses their sense of self preservation? The are not safe to work with. They are in the same category as the true rearer and those who don’t mind slamming themselves into arena walls just to get rid of the rider.[/QUOTE]
This.
I’ve only seen two dirty stoppers that were “cured” of the problem. In both cases it was the result of a bad rider or trainer that brought on the horses (which is why I’m so paranoid that I’ll screw my horse up!) incorrectly. Very incorrectly. The trainer worked miracles with them, but it took a very long time and neither horse was ever going to go on to be a high level jumper or hunter. That’s two horses out of at MANY. If a horse is going to such lengths to avoid doing something it’s trying to tell you something.
What is the definition of “dirty stopper”?
[QUOTE=Janet;7108609]
What is the definition of “dirty stopper”?[/QUOTE]
To me, this is a horse that does not give you any warning that they are going to stop (i.e., peaking, slowing down, etc.). They go to the jump, act like they are going to take off, and then slam on the breaks at the last moment, usually just as you feel they are going to bring their front feet off the ground and you start to go up into your two-point. They usually, but not always, couple this with whirling in one direction, and the rider has a tendency to get pitched over their shoulder unless they are really riding in the backseat.
Riding a dirty stopper can really ruin a rider’s confidence, not to mention their equitation, as well as get them badly hurt.
I do not like rearers, prolific buckers, or stoppers (that do so unrelated to pain). All are a recipe for disaster.
To me, a dirty stopper gives no warning and gets so close to the fence before stopping they hit the fence themselves, seen a few go all the way thru oxers.
Instead of raising the neck and shoulders to rock back to halt or spin out? They drop them throwing themselves off balance and straight into the fence. If they do spin out, they do it so close to the fence they broadside it. They just don’t care if it hurts them or not and that’s what differentiates them from the typical stopper. Most horses won’t do any harm to themselves.
I hate assigning human characteristics to animals but, I swear, horses like this are devious and set a rider up to hurt them even if they hurt themselves doing it.
Mercifully, I have only seen a dozen or so true dirty stoppers Despite hearing the claim for many, many more that were chronic stoppers but lacked that suicidal touch that marks the true dirty stopper.
I learned to jump on a dirty stopper. I suspect he stopped because he would get so wound up and just totally spaz. When I started incorporating small jumps in our everyday riding, he got much much better and was much better about going.
It could be physical, it could be mental. My guy was probably mental… he was in his early 20s when we worked on not being a butt over fences, and he improved a ton. The first time I jumped him 3’ was bareback, and I was able to take him right over it, no problem, no hesitation, no worry that he’d stop–and he had a history of stopping dirty at itty bitty crossrails. He’s 26 now and still going strong, but jumping is still iffy.
Dangerous? I guess so… it doesn’t bother me as much as it probably should. I’d rather have a stopper than a horse who runs out or rears or spooks.
ETA: Definition of dirty stopper–horse who approaches the fence with every indication of going over and at the last moment slams on the brakes.
I had one that would alternate between the go up and spin instead of jumping move, and the last minute stop with the neck down to try and pitch me over. I had a trainer that didn’t encourage me at all to get rid of her, and as a naive teenager, I wanted to keep my horse. She really shattered my confidence and almost 20 years later I still have major trust issues going to the fence, even after a really wonderful brave horse took me through the A/O jumpers.
I think in her case, she was a true alpha mare and just wanted to be in charge. After numerous attempts to sell her as a hunter (beautiful horse, beautiful mover) she ended up in an AA barns lesson program… and LOVED it!!! All of her spook and previous nonsense went away once you put on a tiny pilot that had minimal influence, and she would bee bop around a short stirrup course like you wouldn’t believe.
Was she dangerous? Hell yeah. I have her to thank for a cracked vertebrae and several concussions. In her new job? A saint.
Similar to Boston’s mare, my large pony was a dirty stopper who turned into a saintly lesson horse. I got her when she was stepping down (and this was 30 years ago, so I think she was probably more sore than we realized). She would leave the ground with her front feet and then put them back down right on or through the jump. She wasn’t a spinner, thankfully. Plunk a dead beginner on her back and send her around the ring and she was the best.
The other really dirty spin-stopper I rode turned out to have a degenerative vision problem. He didn’t even see the jump until the last second. He stopped so fast I though my head was going to come off my neck as he dropped his shoulder and spun out.
I purchased a ‘dirty stopper’ as a riding horse for my husband. His owner, at the time, was riding him in grand Prix classes and he had learned to stop at the fence and throw his rider over the top. His owner spent a great deal of time and money trying to ‘fix’ him, but he finally gave up.
I ended up riding him as my dressage horse as he was quite an athlete. He had no soundness issues, but if he saw a jump in the warmup ring he would get very upset and would shy. It took more than a few years of riding him as a dressage horse before he got over his aversions to jumps.
People who knew him as a jumper could not believe the change in his gaits and attitude when they saw me riding him. He was a great horse for me and his problem with jumping was 100% mental.
I did let a friend of mine school him over a 3 ft course ‘once’ after I had been riding him for a few years as a dressage horse only. He no longer had a trust issue and took the jumps with plenty of room to spare. She was not your average rider though, she had more than her share of titles in the jumper ring.
I had one, and as others have stated, it can definatley ruin your confidence. Every horse can and should at times stop, but dirty stoppers get you off without warning and fast!
This one just did not tolerate the normal ammie ride. You had to be perfect, each and every time, and she better not feel any hesitation or indecisivness on the riders part, she’d have your number instantly. Add to the too careful for her own good (afraid to hit a fence) with the spookiness and voila…recipe for disaster. Either she’d be great and you’d feel like you were a Grand Prix jumper and nothing could stop you, and then she’d suddenly decide to get rid of you and she’d lawn dart you over her shoulder or rear up. (no pain just didn’t want to jump)
Nasty nasty…an absolute angel on the flat but fences…she just didn’t want to do them! She’s now retired and living in a field with her breeders. I will never go there again, it’s just not worth it. This is a hobby and there are too many nice, ammie friendly horses out there to risk being hurt from one of these again!
Dangerous and worth looking at the physical, ruling it out, fixing it, etc. However, once a physical issue has been ruled out and corrected, it will most likely remain a ‘mental issue’ that needs to be worked through. If it’s a training issue, to review the basics and ‘why’ he would be stopping is the case-which is what usually needs to be done to ‘retrain’ after correcting a physical issue.
I agree with you 100% about the rearing, but I have to disagree about the running out and spooking. Give me one of those ANY day over a dirty stopper. I’ve had experience with both. The running out and spooking can be fixed or controlled as you build the horse’s confidence. At least you know those horses respect, care about, and/or are paying attention to the jumps. You can convince a spooky horse to jump, but you can’t convince a stopper since the majority of the time you get no warning. JMO!
This is exactly the kind of horse that rocked my confidence. Didn’t suck back to the jump. Just got to the base then stopped, reared, and spun and continued to rear and spin until he either got you off or fell over. I was young and was riding for a “pro”. I finally decided that it wasn’t worth doing this to the horse and refused to ride him over fences. And I still have fear issues from it. ( I get a stride out and I just freeze.) Other riders got badly injured and the horse was sold on. I refuse to beat a horse over every fence. Which was how they got him to jump. If he hates jumping that much then find them something else to do. He was extremely dangerous. And yes I think it can be both physical and mental. He issue were uneducated riders and being over faced.
Ugh, I can’t stand those. Even if it is fixable it’s hard afterward to trust a horse who has lawn darted one into a fence.
I had a very talented project who never stopped, but he had serious confidence issues and would bolt and dive down the last stride or so in front of the fence, turning any nice spot into a chip. Then he’d seriously overjump to clear it, scare himself, and land bucking, which was incredibly hard to stick due to having been jumped out of the tack. It was like a dirty stop- I never had any warning it would happen, and it was totally random under what circumstances it would show up to get me.
It was almost worse than a stopper because I would have the most beautiful, lopey canter going, see the perfect spot five or six strides out, get almost there and then WHAM! BOLT JUMP BUCK!! LAWN DART!!!
