[QUOTE=okggo;6488661]
I think what Bayhawk meant was that there isn’t a TB Sport registry. So those TBs are registered, as you say, with other registries, such as KWPN. So points your mare earn show as KWPN vs TB Sport whatever. That’s how I read it, anyway??[/QUOTE]
YES…
[QUOTE=Jos;6488608]
It would be fascinating to see what the impact on performance statistics would be if the various standings required 5 “pure” generations in order to be considered an animal of a specific breed or registry, with everything else being considered an outcross![/QUOTE]
Jos, you know perfectly that none of the WB registries can fulfill this criteria.
Today different registries have different philosophies to steer their own members in the direction of greater success (in sport and/or economically)
Some are doing well and some are failing.
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6489373]
Jos, you are right when talking of a breed, but a registry is a different animal and all WBs are part of registries, not breeds.
Maybe in another century they’ll become breeds, only when they will decide to close the books to outside blood.
Today different registries have different philosophies to steer their own registry in the direction of greater success (in sport and/or economically)
Some are doing well and some are failing.[/QUOTE]
Did you get the Casall stallion Andy ?
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6489373]
Jos, you are right when talking of a breed, but a registry is a different animal and all WBs are part of registries, not breeds.
Maybe in another century they’ll become breeds, only when they will decide to close the books to outside blood.
Today different registries have different philosophies to steer their own registry in the direction of greater success (in sport and/or economically)
Some are doing well and some are failing.[/QUOTE]
I hope not!
This is the failure of EVERY breed out there (to close books and only allow the variations within the genes that are there).
I am SO happy to see AQHA and Arabs allow half registries and anglo. It is the only thing that will add more diversity and ability to compete openly. I still would like to see America get MORE interested in building on their own registry.
Cylana is by Skippy II.
Antares is 12 years old, 170 cm, Wurttemberger by Araconit.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6489436]
Did you get the Casall stallion Andy ?[/QUOTE]
Sale will happen in September, but it’s not easy to find reliable partners… I think price will exceed my limits for a 3y/o.
Another son of Galoubet A.
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;6489492]
I hope not!
(to close books and only allow the variations within the genes that are there). [/QUOTE]
I hope not also.
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;6489492]
This is the failure of EVERY breed out there (to close books and only allow the variations within the genes that are there).[/QUOTE]
Interestingly, although some breeds such as the TB and Arab have closed books, from a genetics point of view, that is not a prerequisite for operating a a breed.
Somewhere else (another thread?) I commented that genetically speaking, an animal of >7/8 (>87.5%) of the same “blood” is considered “pure”. This is based upon the supposition that at that level, the animal will breed “true” to a greater extent, and is related to 5 generations (with some lesser evolved characteristics, 3 generations will breed “true”).
It is therefore quite possible to operate a breed, but still allow outcrossing to introduce new characteristics - this is known as an “open studbook” and is achieved by operating a “main” stud book, in which animals of >7/8 blood are recorded, while there are other stud books record animals of lesser blood.
This is related to the “F” structure is created in genetics. Let us suppose that we have such a breed as described above, and we are introducing an outside animal to that breed. That animal will be termed an F0. When crossed with another animal of a different breed but which has also been deemed acceptable for use (one cannot cross TB on TB and be considered to be evolving another breed for example - it’s still a TB!!), the resulting offspring will be an “F1”. An F1 crossed on an F1 produces an F2, and so on. F5 is the first generation of “pure”. When crossing, one can only go one generation higher than the lowest common denominator, so crossing an F1 on an F4 results in an F2, and similarly a main stud book animal crossed on an F1 will also produce an F2.
The above does raise an interesting point, as the vast majority of sport horse breeders use an outcross, seeking heterosis or “hybrid vigour” (which is often excellent), but this action does not stabilise the resulting gene pool (i.e. those characteristics in that animal will have a reduced chance of being passed on to the next generation, compared to an F4 animal’s characteristics).
Although warmbloods are considered a “registry” rather than a “breed”, the “open stud book” structure is essentially how they operate. There is however, typically, a greater amount of outcrossing, so fewer animals would get to an F5 or greater status. The major key to being considered a breed of course, rather than a registry, is that a significant (usually greater) number of animals comprise the “pure” (F5 or greater) portion of the stud book - a “breed” with a greater number of animals <F5 may be considered an “evolving breed” (if that is their aim) or a registry.
This is completely OT to the original thread, for which I apologise, but it is (IMO) an interesting point that is often misunderstood when breeds, stud books and genetic input are being discussed.
OK - Carry On! 
The AHA (Arabian horse association) is attempting to resolve this issue in terms of keeping a “sport horse” and Arabian horse synonymous.
I think they have been genius in allowing a half-arab registry.
Ive seen them crossed on pretty much everthing and Anglo/Wb crosses of course dominated much of the sport horse classes Nationals before last.
Its taking a page out of the European book to be sure…
I also think the TB’s need a sport horse registry of their own… And then develope that into a registry that allows open book (after establishing the best pure lines).
Again that would be genius IMO and people would proudly line up for a brand (myself included).
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