So then, how do I teach my horse not to bolt away from me when on the lunge line because he knows he can get away from me? The only way I can get him not to bolt away is by using a chain over his nose on the lunge (don’t worry, I don’t abuse it and haven’t caused him physical harm). The times he doesn’t bolt away without the chain, yes, I’ve praised the snot out of him and he couldn’t care less, in the next circuit he’s tearing away from me and yeehawing around the arena with the lunge line dragging.
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The problem is way before you ever put him on the lunge.
The problem is that he hasn’t been taught to properly give to pressure, under a variety of situations you have way more control over.
I had to start over with my OTTB mare because of this. I THOUGHT she was good to lead. And she was. She led perfectly, because she followed. But when following wasn’t ok, for any reason, she’d bolt.
So, teach to give to pressure in hand first,
Then, to translate that to the lunge, which was ALSO, for her, a confidence problem, “lunging” was me 2-3’ from her and walking and trotting with her. Farther than in-hand, but not nearly lunging distance.
She would occasionally lose it a bit and start to head off, but the proximity made it a lot easier to get her back. If you can’t get control from 2’ away, then you shouldn’t be 2’ away. Work the line out 6" at a time over days if that’s what it takes.
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Yes. Also if my horse has that much energy she gets an attended turnout “free longe” buck and run session to get the wiggles out. Longe is not for working off excess energy. It’s for training and listening to me.
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Yeah, I generally only longe my horse for five-ten minutes and I ask her to walk/halt and she sort of knows trot since she’s only two. She has a very busy brain, so asking her to go through the paces she knows calms down her brain. And she knows how to do this on a lunge line and “free” lunging.
One thing I was taught that might help is gently apply pressure to various body parts (the legs, for example) and see how the horse responds. If the horse doesn’t yield, then work on teaching the horse to yield to pressure. No need to be rough.
Not entirely related, but yesterday, a friend was helping and I told her that I usually just let my mare work out her grievances alone since she loves attention and is a busy bee. We let her be (tied), and a few minutes later, she was sleeping. They can also teach themselves.
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I really love this post.
Especially this…
“The funny thing is, he doesn’t do anything bad – but he is incredibly sensitive to the point I joke he is the world’s worst empath.”
I can relate. This is my horse 
I often joke that he’s part donkey, somewhat due to his markings, but his thinking and the way to train him can be similar sometimes re the trust stuff.
Anyway, I also think that people are oblivious. I get into conversations about it with a friend because she’s so unaware and unintentionally rough or blunt. She claims I have this “feeling” that she just doesn’t have, and its hard for her to acquire. Her mare is sometimes a bit difficult for her, but quite ok with me. It used to take people 30 minutes or more to get her in the trailer. I did it in less than 5. That mare and I have an understanding. I show her respect and listen to her (she’s sort of a boss mare type), but there are boundaries, and they’re firm and fair. Nothing wishy washy either. Say what you mean and mean what you say. A bit opposite of her owner. She’s quite obvious with her communications (the mare) but they’re often ignored. I can think of so many examples we’ve discussed, and friend is open to hearing about these things at least.
My horse is insanely sensitive and would be a mess with the wrong person. He’s the first horse I’ve had that I almost want to describe as “emotional” 
but he’s also insanely smart. He will test people a bit, but it’s mostly his way of finding our what type of leader they are and if he can trust them. For example he walks through water/puddles no problem. Friend (mentioned above) asked him to do this and he would not. Could be an act of defiance or poor ground manners (not in his case), but if she couldn’t show him confidence and guidance correctly, he wasn’t doing it. If you have a doubt in your mind or a hint of nervousness he knows it before you do.
If you’re correct (body language and whatnot), firm, fair, confident, but relaxed then he’ll do whatever and try his best. I’ve owned him since a green bean and man, he’s taught me so much about riding and polishing up my horsemanship. It’s such a mental thing with him. It’s fascinating, cool, and sometimes frustrating. People have said he looks so easy (he is, generally) but when they ride him they’re not quite sure what to do and find it more difficult than pictured. It’s not difficult, you just have to be correct with your body, and your head has to be correct too. If you’re open to this, you can learn a lot.
Edited to add: on a general note I feel as though many people spend a lot of time telling their horse what not to do but not what to do, or what to do instead. They don’t show them the way, the only block ways.
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I really like your last point. I recently had a trainer break this down to me and explain to go super slow and be painstakingly precise with everything so that I clearly explain what I want rather than discipline my horse. She also told me to video myself and watch the videos so I can see where I explain something correctly and where I confuse my horse. It really helped me a ton.
I’ll probably send my horse to a trainer for 90 days in six months or a year-- not for riding, but for continued education-- but it’s nice to have other trainers handle her so she doesn’t get too spoiled.
“Force Free Lady” or FFL is an interesting case study because I’ve never witnessed training like her. I actually rode her horse and I used my regular buttons and suddenly felt like I couldn’t ride. I put slight contact and the horse leaned into my hands. I put leg on the horse and she did these weird circles. The horse was trained with the John Lyons method, which I’ve heard is a bit different. It helped when I rode another horse and I was able to ride like a normal human being.
One thing that I’ve tried to break FFL of is messing with my horse. I just can’t and I’ve given up. She loves “training” my horse out in the pasture and will give her treats. Like, how do I discipline an adult woman?
Yep! In my case, she was on full time turnout, so her issue was much more about confidence and just not understanding, than energy. Yes, she’s a high energy horse, but also definitely NOT the kind you can work to burn it off to the point she’s mentally mellow - that would be a LONG time.
But absolutely, that needs to be considered. Yes, high energy situations do need training to handle that, you can’t always do that liberty work to burn some of it off. But you need a solid foundation under them first, so you do sometimes need to start with a burn-off.
And I HATE the practice of anyone doing that on the lunge line. Any physical attachment to me is Behave Time. And racing around and bucking on the lunge on purpose is a great recipe for an injury. Do it somewhere bigger, where you aren’t connected.
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YESSSSSSS. OMG, there are a billion alternatives to “not this”.
Sometimes “not this” is ok. If I’m in the pasture and someone is getting too close and personal, “don’t be here” is a perfectly acceptable request, and it doesn’t matter what else he chooses to do.
But usually, he needs to be shown exactly what TO do.
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JL doesn’t train anything like that. He uses a lot of negative reinforcement, in addition to a lot of positive reinforcement. All the good “natural horsemanship” trainers do.
How direct and forceful have you been with her? That is 1000% unacceptable.
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I’ve been incredibly direct with her and she just smiled and nodded. She later told me that about working with my horse. She’s an oddball.
On this point, a trainer I took a clinic with said basically the same thing: if a QH, for example, bolts with you, you can just make it go until you tell it to stop (past when the horse might want to stop on his own) as a way of dealing with a bolter. But, the trainer said, it’s not advisable to try to do that with a TB–it will be some time the next day before the horse decides to stop running.
On a different point: I watched the video posted in the OP about horses “choosing.” I’d agree that the trainer uses some potentially dangerous methods, but overall there’s nothing particularly “force-free” about it. And for all of the discussion of the horse “choosing” to go along with what the trainer asks, really the method just is a variation on the “join up” techniques, it seems to me anyway.
Even that trainer’s extended discussion about not using a bit in the horse’s mouth as being too forceful ends with her using a hackamore with a low noseband. The trainer discusses the need occasionally to sharply pull (or even jerk) on the reins to reinforce the stop cue. So she’s replacing one kind of force with another. (Of course I understand that a severe bit in a horse’s mouth can probably do more damage if a rider is harsh with the hands).
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Recently saw a quote in a barn (paraphrased):
“Riding is entirely about the person: their posture, aids and application. It has nothing to do with the horse. The horse is a victim of his circumstances.”
I think that’s a very good way of thinking about punishment/positive reinforcement, etc. How to deal with the victim.
You can break a horse’s nose with a hackamore. The tool isn’t the problem. The spade bit of a finished Bridle Horse would be deadly in the hands of a beginner but is a tool of magical finesse for the educated rider.
It’s similar to people saying “use a fat bit, it’s kinder”. It’s not kinder if the horse has a low palate and/or thick tongue. It’s not kinder if it takes more force on his bars to make an impression on him . A “harsher” bit that allows for a light touch to make a kind impression, is way kinder. So you can use the “polite” snaffle and have to jerk on your horse’s face as he’s excitedly galloping down to a 5’ oxer, or you can use a leverage bit and have a much more civil conversation.
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He gets plenty of turnout, goes out at about 7 am. Comes in at 8 pm. He doesn’t do much running and farting around in turnout, mostly lounges about and eats.
This is the very basis of John Lyon’s teaching. I think FFL is off her rocker and going to get hurt someday.
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I have 2 takes on this:
If we put ourselves that close into the horse’s space, then his stepping on our feet is our fault, and while yeah we want to get that foot off ours ASAP, we have to learn.
But if the horse decided he’s going to get up close and personal without being invited, then it’s his fault for losing track of where we are. Horses in herds don’t forget where other horses are, they know. And if they DO forget and bump into someone who doesn’t appreciate it, they are told swiftly and precisely to bug off, and the odds of that horse losing focus again like that, is pretty slim.
I wanted to pull these out and discuss as a whole
In trimming feet, the end goal is always the same, and evaluating what’s in front of you goes through the same process, and the same principles are used to decide what material to leave and what to remove.
IMHO there is a big broad umbrella of what constitutes kind, considerate, compassionate training. The end goal is the same, evaluting what’s in front of you goes through the same process, and the same principles are used to decide how to entice, correct (not the same as discipline), reward, etc, to get there.
My WB gelding (rip) and OTTB mare couldn’t be more different. He was stoic, that “dumblood” mentality who was VERY smart, but very low key, surfer dude whatever attitude, needing a higher level of motivation to do the work, and would often find a new move that he loved and use it energetically to get out of learning a new, harder move LOL. He was the kind you asked…asked harder…REQUESTED…, and then “demanded” a reaction. He was pretty easy to get to the first ask IF you rewarded his big try profusely. With him, it was a constant effort to get him to react first, think later.
She, on the other hand, if I treated her like him, she’d be in the next county. You ask her, and if she even suspects it isn’t what you wanted, she’s off trying the next thing she can think of, before you have a chance to praise her try. She’s mentally FAST So her initial ask has to be low energy, lower than Rio’s first ask, so she will slow her thought process down. For her, it’s a constant effort to get her to think first, then act accordingly.
It’s all the same process, but the implementation is just different. It’s all R- and R+, but at different effort levels and even different percentages.
Neither of them did/do anything bad. Ever. They were/are real empaths but in different ways.
Amen. This is supposed to be a trusting partnership. Dictators may get compliance, but not trust, and without trust, that compliance will desert you faster than you can blink in a critical situation.
way too many people have NO idea how to read their horse, not his eyes, not the wrinkle of his nose, not the difference between an ear back because he’s listening or because he’s afraid or angry, let alone see when a horse is shut down (and may very well suddenly come out and explode all over you) or is just ignoring you because he can
All this makes for a VERY large degree of inconsistency in training, which leads to inconsistency in correction, and that all translates to UNFAIR to the horse. They want black and white. Not gray. It’s very unfair to allow him to lag behind and have to pull him along while leading, but then expect him to be zippy off your leg or load like a champ into a trailer.
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She IS crazy, based on what you’ve said about what she does and why. But sometimes the crazy ones do slap us hard enough in the brain to make us look at something differently. That doesn’t mean the answer will change though it might. What’s a specific situation she made you look at differently?
Disagree on what force means. It can be physical, and it can be mental (which is why dropping eye contact with a horse can be a huge relief for him). But simply having contact doesn’t mean force in this context.
IMHO, “force” should mean something the horse wants to avoid, whether that’s physical pressure (ie your heel pressing on his left side to get him to move his haunches to the right), or the mental pressure of engaging his eye contact until he turns to look at you and then you look away.
Brushing COULD be unwanted force if you’re using the wrong brush, or the horse hurts there, and the brush/brushing actually hurts. That’s not something to be intentional about, that’s accidental.
And what do you suggest that people do at a horse show, where there is no turn out and the only alternatives are lunge line or get on and ride it out?
This is the problem with so much of the advice that is offered here at COTH. It’s all about what you should do in the ideal situation and not about the practical realities of life with horses.
I feel your pain. I used to have a draft mule. He had been ground worked out the wazoo. Yielded to pressure, would step away if you looked and leaned toward his hip or shoulder, would back half way across the ring on a loose lead with nothing more than you facing him and moving your hand back toward his chest a few inches. He knew what he was supposed to do, he knew how lunging worked. But, if he decided he didn’t feel like lunging today or wanted to play, he would bow his neck, give you the finger, and off he went. There was absolutely nothing you could do about it.
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Hopefully by the time you get to a horse show you have some routines installed so horse knows to behave. I have seen so many horses get chronic strain injuries in part because of racing on the longe line. Ironically these are the horses who never get turnout because “it’s too dangerous” and Pookie might get hurt.
People inadvertently teach their horses to bolt and buck on longe lines when the horse has no other outlet to move. And lots of horses in some pasture situations just stand and eat. If the herd doesn’t give them a gallop every day they may need a free longe loose session when you bring them in before longe line.
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