Discoid Lupus AKA "Collie Nose"? - UPDATE!

[Mosey_2003]

Our little Cocker adoptee, Maxwell, has a crusty nose. He’s a sable color and his nose, lips, and skin around his eyes is a liver-y pink color, has been since we got him a year ago. Right after we got him he started getting a little patch of what looked like dry skin on top of his nose, and that progressed into a big, chalky growth. Which fell off, and then he had tender bleed-y skin underneath. That healed up and now he has an even bigger crusty growth that’s splitting and is just yucky.

Through Dr. Google I have determined this is discoid lupus, the pictures look exactly the same. Is there anything I can do for this?

Triggers are supposed to be sun exposure, stress, and diet.
-He only goes outside to potty three times a day, especially in the winter (his joy in life is napping in various places :lol:).
-He IS a stressy little fellow, most notably when something changes (like rearranging the furniture). We’ve been trying to keep him happy in this regard and his stress behaviors haven’t happened in awhile.
-He eats Nutro Natural Choice Sensitive Skin & Stomach Venison Meal & Whole Brown Rice Formula. The lady that was fostering him recommended grain-free because of his ears (typical Cocker) and at first I bought a really expensive fish-based kibble that he flat-out refused to eat. Then I tried Nutro Grain Free Venison and Potato, which he liked, but the nose problem was already happening then, so switching back to that probably wouldn’t help. I switched to what he’s on now because it comes in a slightly bigger bag for the same price as the venison.

Also, he was very shiny when we got him and he’s not now, he’s fuzzy. Other than the nose and lack of shine he seems like a healthy, happy little guy. He had diarrhea when we got him but stool has been fine since on the Nutro food. Also, he’s a licker, I think it’s a habit. He licks his nose excessively, it’s like he gets in a loop and it’s just lick-lick-lick, I bet this exacerbates the problem.

Any ideas? Anything that I could put on his nose to help? Should I give him fish oil capsules? Some places recommend doing that to up the Omega 3.

Obviously, I’m probably going to have to involve our vet, but I’d like to bounce ideas around before we get to the steroid stage.

For reference, this is what he looked like the day he came home:
http://s207.photobucket.com/user/FitzgeraldFarm/media/Max/max2.jpg.html?sort=4&o=0

And this is now:

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[Mosey_2003]

Nobody?

[SquishTheBunny]

I would probably contact your vet about it, from what I understand its only going to get a “true” diagnosis if a small biopsy is taken. I wouldn’t feel confident saying that did/didn’t look like it, beacause all the cases I have seen were far far worse.

If it is discoid lupus, immune suppressing drugs are often required such as prednisone or azothiaprine. Its best to start early and manage on low doses rather than let it get bad and have to hit them harder with higher doses.

But…obviously you need a diagnosis first before administering such drugs
Good luck, its usually very easy to manage.

[PhoenixFarm]

I have a collie with it. Honestly, other than vitamin E (one capsule in his breakfast, one pricked w a knife a smeared on his nose), we don’t do anything. My vets perspective was, at the stage he has its more aesthetic than actually problematic, and we should hold off on steroids as long as possible. They can get the lesions all over, and they may eventually need to be on steroids permanently, but the longer you can wait the better. I’ve done pred on our guy twice, when the nose became raw and painful. Otherwise it’s just a bit ugly.

[Calamber]

The dog looks like he is in need of something nutritionally. My Cocker looked just like this one and had a problematical area on his chest and one on either side of his sheath for many years. I finally had a vet say that he was allergic to something so I changed his food to a product that has since been sold and the recipe changed but before that, the areas of his skin cleared up, and that had been going on for nearly 8 years. He is no longer with us for unrelated reasons but now I use Acana Pacific Fish for my Lab and Wellness Core for my Jack. I would try the Acana line, they have a Venison meal line too and try what Phoenix recommended with the Vitamin E. Good luck with your boy, it gave me a shock to look at him, he could have been my Hector’s twin.

[tallyho392]

for the stress, how about one of those pheromone diffusers?..I haven’t used one, but know folks who have, and they swear that it makes a major difference…so much so, that if they forget to refill it, the dog’s change in behavior reminds them it must be empty…

good luck with your fella…he IS a cutie!

[Mosey_2003]

I’ve never heard of a pheromone diffuser, I’ll have to Google that!

I have been thinking it must be something diet-related too, the dull coat and what-not. Will have to see if anyone around here carries Acana, all I know is that the Nature’s Choice fish was a TOTAL no-go :no: Funny thing though, I bought a bag of the treats when I got it and he loves those, go figure. Of course, it doesn’t help that Mom & Dad insist on giving him some of everything they eat, and they eat junk. I’ve tried stressing how bad this can be for his health and they just think I’m nuts and I’m depriving the dog. :sigh:

Will try giving him some Vitamin E and popping some on his nose, thanks!

I plan on talking to the vet about it at his yearly, I’m just hesitant to start steroids before trying less-invasive measures, if possible.

[idlemoon]

Many things can look like “collie nose” including hyperkeratosis, mucocutaneous pyoderma ( MCP), Pemphigus Foliceus (PF) and DLE ( discoid lupus erythematosus). To establish a definitive diagnosis, a biopsy must be done. I could not see without a closer up view, but I would ask you the following questions:

1. Is there an bacterial infection? Green or yellow crusts? Fissures? Bleeding?
2. Is there any depigmentation of the nose? White or pale skin where it used to be dark?
3. Is there any loss of cobble stoning? Meaning is the surface of the nose baby bottom smooth or is it the normal “cobblestone” apprearance?

First, a minimum of a 1 month course of oral antibiotics should be used. If the lesion is still present then biopsy while still on the antibiotics.Histologically, DLE and MCP are nearly identical, especially if not read by a pathologist specializing in skin(dermatohistopathologist). You would be wasting you $$ not to treat with antibiotics prior to biopsy.

MCP can be treated with topical and /or antibiotics during flares.

DLE can be treated without oral steroids in many cases. You can use topical Tacrolimus, topical steroids and truly one of the most effective treatments is the concurrent use of Doxycyline (or relative) and Niacinamide (NOT NIACIN). DLE is exacerbated by the sun. Use sunscreen.

PF is harder to treat and needs immunosuppressive doses of steroids and immune modulating medications.

Hyper keratosis can be helped with controlling sometimes concurrent bacterial infections, and with emollients.

Hope that helps.

Lisa

[Mosey_2003]

That was VERY helpful, thank you! Looks like I’ll need to bump up his vet visit and have them biopsy sooner rather than later. It is a chalky yellow/green crustiness, but no loss of pigment and only loss of cobblestone where the crust/sore is.

[Mosey_2003]

So I switched him to a grain-free turkey kibble I can get at Wal-Mart, I think it’s Rachael Ray, and didn’t see much improvement. Maybe a little shinier. A month or so ago he went to the vet for his annual and got a cortisone shot and coat improved a little, something in his environment irritates his skin and eyes. The nose has been better as long as we keep Vick’s on it, weird.

But at that appointment he recommended a dental so we got in for that last Wednesday… Holy crap the dog is shiny again! His teeth were a Stage III apparently? Doc said they polished up nicely and he tried a new antibiotic gel that they put right up under the gums and is supposed to last awhile and he’s on two weeks of oral antibiotics. So I guess infection in his mouth made the poor little feller unwell overall. Looking good now!

[Bells]

Make sure you aren’t feeding in a plastic dish too.

[Mosey_2003]

What’s wrong with a plastic dish?

[idlemoon]

The one time steroid shot may not be the solution for long term…
But good luck…

Lisa

[Bells]

Plastic dishes hold bacteria. Use a metal bowl. You can google it. You may be nicely surprised. My sister was thrilled when her border collie’s nose finally healed.

[BuddyRoo]

Did you have the nose biopsied?

I have discoid lupus myself. Sun, stress, diet…all comes into play. If I manage those things well, I usually don’t have to be on steroids. I am not terribly familiar with the dog version but as far as autoimmune things go, i’ve also found that an omega fatty acid supplement is helpful.

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=Bells;7616432]
Make sure you aren’t feeding in a plastic dish too.[/QUOTE]

THis^^^

They are often the cause of facial issues like acne type bumps, hair loss, redness.

[Mosey_2003]

Got rid of the plastic dish, he’s got a Fiesta bowl for now. Didn’t get a biopsy, it was much better when he went to the vet and hasn’t gotten so bad again, so whatever it is in Vick’s is keeping his nose nice. If it gets bad again I’ll take him in for one.