Discussing trainer's show fees?

[lindsay.anne]

Playing the devils advocate, to my location; those prices are cheap.

$150/ round trip trailer ride, $100/ trainer fee per day, $40/ schooling the horses. This includes schooling shows. In comparison to where I lived in Kentucky… $50/round trip, $60/trainer fee, $25/horse ride.

I believe it all depends on your location. To me, as you stated, she is not a BNT- so why are her prices so high that reflect a higher caliber training price. Personally, my prices are lower than average for my location, not because I dont believe in myself, but because I am a “new” professional building clientele- making a name, starting from the bottom. Supply and demand- although the horse industry believes its demand, demand, demand.

Doesnt hurt to discuss the “hey- if I help set up, can you help knock the fees of some of these things down”. Good luck!

[Midge]

[QUOTE=jhg140;8099478]
For a non-rated show, I’m going to say those prices feel excessive. Most barns I’ve been with have charged a day fee for day care, etc, but that fee is usually all inclusive of set up, etc.

Just my $0.02[/QUOTE]

I don’t know why people think a schooling show should cost less. The rating of the horse show is meaningless to the expenses the trainer incurs. I mean, when she gasses up the truck, is the gas station going to give her a discount when she tells them she is going to a schooling show? There is no difference between setting jumps in the schooling area of a schooling show than an A show.

[Lord_Helpus]

Shows are getting more and more expensive. Evidently, for the PNW, your trainer is close to the norm. I think $100 is realistic if it includes her riding your horse and training you when you ride. Does she also get there early and feed? Who mucks? Does she do night check? Does she take care of your entries at the office? – Personally I hate the idea of a medications fee, but I would hope that is not an across the board fee, but a fee for both the med and the giving the shot/paste for those horses who show in meds.

In the East, show expensives have gotten SO high that I am back to doing everything myself, except for riding my green jumper. That way I save on $100 day care, (plus $100 tip for each groom for a 5 day show), set up fees, tack/feed and equipment stalls, my share of trainers and grooms expenses, etc.

The trade off is that I pay more per ride, and I van my horse, set up his stall and my stuff, feed, muck, groom, lunge (often at 6am), tack up, take him to the ring, set jumps in the warm up, take him back and bathe and wrap him. Feed again and come back to the show grounds at 9pm for night check.

Then I am back at the show at 5am to do it all again.

The difference is significant though. A 5 day show can easily cost $1500 - $2000, and, if I do my own work (and stay at Motel 6 for $50/night), I can save $700 - $1000 per show. Plus, I have the fun of being a part of my horse’s experience.

Peppermints, videoing and clapping are a wash, since I would be doing that anyway.

[janedoe726]

Lord Helpus- I adore your signature line! You’re my kind of horsewoman!

[costco_muffins]

@Lord Helpus;8099997

Shows are getting more and more expensive. Evidently, for the PNW, your trainer is close to the norm. I think $100 is realistic if it includes her riding your horse and training you when you ride. Does she also get there early and feed? Who mucks? Does she do night check? Does she take care of your entries at the office? – Personally I hate the idea of a medications fee, but I would hope that is not an across the board fee, but a fee for both the med and the giving the shot/paste for those horses who show in meds.

The $100 day fee includes only the coaching in the schooling ring and during rounds. Feeding, mucking, tack room set up, entries, grooming, tacking, wrapping, are all done by riders.

Trailering is 25 miles round trip. The fee of $85 is per horse for the 15 minute drive. Students load horses, clean the trailer, and load all equipment themselves. There are no grooms.

The cost for a lesson horse to use is on top of the stated fees.

Because it is a schooling show, trainer often has many students in multiple rings, so attention can be limited during schooling in deference to students in the ring.

Training/schooling rides are more, $25 each time she gets on the horse (example: $25 for schooling the night before, $25 for the day of, $25 for one class before you ride for a total of $75).

[Calvincrowe]

Yikes! The day fee is high for our area, frankly. I’ve seen/read/experienced the day fees for the big show barns and that is excessive for a “local” show (as in, close to your barn). If you are doing the set up…who are you paying?? My barn usually has 3-5 horses as shows, and the clients set up and tear down. We help pack and load/unload, set up stalls, drapes, etc. We don’t do a groom–we prep and care for our own horses, or the trainer does. The day fee in our barn includes coaching or riding by the trainer as needed, no separate fee. Meds are administered by either the trainer or client (though bute is our “med” and given per rules). The trailering fee is a bit high for the distance, but not out of bounds (that would be a $50 in our barn).

I’d be having a discussion with trainer. It sounds like she has caviar prices in a fish and chip world. Too much for me, if I were a client. I know most of the barns in the area, and your trainer’s prices seem excessive.

I’d be having a

[jhg140]

[QUOTE=Midge;8099969]
I don’t know why people think a schooling show should cost less. The rating of the horse show is meaningless to the expenses the trainer incurs. I mean, when she gasses up the truck, is the gas station going to give her a discount when she tells them she is going to a schooling show? There is no difference between setting jumps in the schooling area of a schooling show than an A show.[/QUOTE]

I perhaps used the wrong phrasing. I understand that gas and time are the same no matter what. But to charge your students a day fee at a small local show (which, generally, require less coordination of horses/students/services due to the overall smaller size), and then the students do the work of caring for the horse? Excessive.

My trainer waives my day care fee when I do my own care, and it’s only $25 to start. Training is charged separately.

[ilmjumper]

I feel like a day show ends up being more work than a multi day show. Same number of horses/riders going in the same number of classes but instead of being spread out over a week, they’re all going in one day, so the number of hours worked ends up being higher. Especially if the trainer sleeps onsite and does night checks. Looking at local shows here, which start at 8am and can go to 10 pm (depending on the show), if she trailers in the day before at lets say 3pm and leaves the barn that night at 8 (guessing based on my own showing schedules…could be later if she braids all night) That’s five hours already in, not counting any prep hours at the home barn and driving time. If the show starts at 8, she’s probably up at 6 and works all day long, going by shows here possibly not getting home until at least 10pm. So 6am-10pm is a 16 hour day, plus the 5 hours from the day before, that’s 21 hours. You said she takes a 5 horse trailer so assuming no one else trailers in that’s $500 in day fees. $85/horse for trailering is $425, so she’s at $945 (- $75 ish for gas, maybe a rv hook up, those run $35/night here, 4 meals at a show grounds that’s probably at least $50. So she’s getting maybe 35-37 dollars per hour plus training ride money. Not too shabby, but not outrageous either if she’s running her tail off for everyone. I probably would protest the set up fee if i was there and busting my butt to help set up before and after. The $ amount of fees don’t bug me as long as I feel I’m getting my money’s worth and that’s something only you can really answer

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Jsalem;8098863]

As a client, you should evaluate the value of having your trainer work the show. Some folks go it alone. Only you can decide if you appreciate the value of your trainer’s time.[/QUOTE]
I think this needs to be repeated again and again.
It does not matter what others charge/pay their trainer/grooms/barn staff for shows. What matters is if this trainer is worth this amount to you.
You have to look at the whole picture. If the trainer down the street charges quite a bit less for show fees is the lower price worth dealing with other aspects of that training situation? Is their board more/less? How is the care there? What is the atmosphere like at that barn?
Sometimes it is worth paying a little more for one aspect of a trainer because you like that trainer, their program and their barn.

@carroal;8098868

These are rates you are seeing on the handout not on your bill, right? If you do your own set up I would protest the set up fee. The $100 day does seem high. I think we are charged 50/day coaching fee and 25/day day care fee for trainer or employee to clean stall. We are charged the same regardless of whether it is a schooling show or an A show.

Maybe it was clarified and I missed it, but on the first page it was asked if that $100 covered both days (trucking in and having a lesson day and the day of the show) of this show or was it per day. The OP thought it might be both days. If it is both days it is actually right in line with what you say you pay.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=ilmjumper;8102089]
I feel like a day show ends up being more work than a multi day show. Same number of horses/riders going in the same number of classes but instead of being spread out over a week, they’re all going in one day, so the number of hours worked ends up being higher. [/QUOTE]

An overnight means there will be stalls, so dragging equipment to the stalls, paying for bedding, spreading the bedding, setting up a grooming area, etc. A day show can be done out of a trailer which is substantially less work if you keep the horses on/tied to the trailer.

[inca]

Hauling seems expensive for such a short trip but I would expect some sort of mimimum hauling fee. But, if trainer is taking 5 horses at $85 each, that is $425. Pretty nice chunk of change for 20 minutes there and 20 minutes back. Might take what, 5 gallons of diesel plus her time?

We go to both A shows and our local circuit, which are 2 days shows (we get there a day early to school so 3 days.) We help with set up and do our own grooming/tacking up/stall cleaning. I am usually the one that ends of feeding the horses too. We pay $50 per day and that includes everything but trainer riding the horse. Not sure how much it is now if trainer rides/shows your horse. A few years ago it was $75 in that case. That charge is per day that we are at the show. Although this past A show, our first day there we just did set up and hacked and the charge was 1/2 of normal (we arrived a day earlier than normal.)

So, if the $100 covers both days (schooling the day before and show day) that seems quite reasonable. If it is a total of $200, that seems somewhat outrageous.

And I would be mad if I helped load and unload the trailer, set up my own stall with buckets and shavings and then was charged $25 for set up.

[Khadiiyo]

A note on the trailing fee…does she charge the same amount for all trips under a certain mileage? It may be that she loses money on some trips and then makes up for it with a close show like this. Just a thought

[Summit_Springs_Farm]

Sounds reasonable, no day care fee is a big savings, although I would ask to opt out of the medication fee and do my own.

[Spud_amp_Saf]

How many people from your barn attend/ride at the show? If you consider the time it takes to pack the trailer, load the horses, actually drive them, unload the horses, plus be around while you all get settled and possibly school the night before, then be at the show all day coaching show and take everyone home, that’s a lot of hours of the trainer’s time.

I have done smaller scale schooling show coaching with only a few students, and I can say for sure every time I have lost money compared to a much shorter day doing lessons at home. Those shows are often poorly organized, and include warm-ups in the actual ring you will be showing in before every division that drag the day on and on. By the time everything is said and done, I’ve spent 16-18 hours on my feet in the hot sun chasing after everyone to get them to the right ring at the right time, because they aren’t experienced enough or old enough to know how to do it themselves. Not to mention, these types generally don’t show all that often, so there’s at usually at least one horse that isn’t an experienced/confirmed loader that takes a ridiculous amount of time to load. Throw in an inevitable green horse or rider meltdown (mini or epic) on top of that, and it’s enough for any sane person to say forget it.

$85 return shipping is quite reasonable IMO. I have paid more than double that for a shorter trip.

[Calvincrowe]

No, really, the charges listed by OP in her first post are high by our PNW hunter/jumper show circuit (local or A) trainer/barn standards. One of the biggest/fanciest H/J barns charges $100/day for “local” (read AA/A shows in the Portland area) and that includes grooming, pack/unpack, set up, stall cleaning etc. Unless that $100 is for two days—but day fees usually don’t begin the haul in day for my trainer unless it is an A show where we are setting up show stalls/grooming/tack and putting up drapes, etc. and they are riding.

[foursocks]

I am with Lord Helpus- I couldn’t afford to show much if I had to pay any of those fees, so they all sound high to me!

But it is relative- I have my own rig, I don’t need anyone else to school my horse for me, I do all of my own care, and my set up is pretty unfancy- basically if I remembered to pack everything in my show trunk and the cooler has ice wraps, beer, and cider I am feeling pretty good about things. I also don’t have to pay a trainer at the shows because I’m only doing the High Adult jumpers right now, and I don’t need trainer help for that level. When we go up a level I will probably arrange to meet someone at the ring- but I’ll still do everything else myself. I usually coerce one of my eventer friends into coming along to help during the day, which is invaluable, but they get paid in drinks and food and help at their next event!

Honestly, though- if I could afford it I would LOVE to have someone else to do all of those things. I would love having my trainer there to hold my hand ringside. I would love not having to hand walk my boy for hours so he doesn’t trash his stall, and it would be great not having to come back for night check to make sure he is happy and safe. Mucking is a drag! It would also be great to be with my barnmates- I loved that when I showed as a kid.

So, yeah- if you are getting the help you need and you are happy with the trainer AND you are able to afford it, I guess it’s an opportunity cost calculation you need to make. I would question the set up fee if you are actually doing the set up, but otherwise it is a matter of what all of those things are worth to you versus going somewhere else for those services, or doing them yourself.

[Midge]

It is also extremely hard to judge costs when only comparing the individual items on a rate sheet and not the overall fees charged. I know someone who has a very high day care fee, but they do not charge for hotels and meals. Others have high training fees, but that includes rides.

I have found overall most trainers of a similar reputation are in a similar price range.

I do think a rate sheet should be clear enough that you can understand how you are being charged and under what circumstances. If you are not sure what you are paying for, you should ask. It also is a good idea to ask before you go to a show, so there is no big surprise when you get the bill.

On a side note, it is pretty amazing what people will attempt to charge out. I knew a trainer who invited everyone out to dinner at a very nice restaurant, then put it on the customer’s bill! :lol:

[Midge]

@foursocks;8102585

Honestly, though- if I could afford it I would LOVE to have someone else to do all of those things. I would love having my trainer there to hold my hand ringside. I would love not having to hand walk my boy for hours so he doesn’t trash his stall, and it would be great not having to come back for night check to make sure he is happy and safe. Mucking is a drag! It would also be great to be with my barnmates- I loved that when I showed as a kid.

I’ve almost always had a trainer at shows but not a groom. I had full care one day one time, and it was the best horse show day ever.

[Jsalem]

Back in the early days of my business I didn’t charge any kind of “day care” fee. The clients “all pitched in”. This is what that really looked like from my vantage point:

*I made all the arrangements for stalls and entries.
*I packed the trailer with any supplies, buckets, feed hay. Occasionally there was someone there to help with the heavy lifting, but usually not.
*I wrapped the horses and shipped.
*I unpacked and set up all the of the horses’ stalls with shavings, buckets, grooming stall. There was usually one or two people to help with that.
*I was the first` person to the show so I fed am. Usually alone.
*I was the last person at the show so I fed pm. Maybe I had help.
*Folks did their own stalls, but not very well. I had to go behind and pick up the forks, shut the trunk lids, clean the food table and rake the hall.
*I organized the tear down and packed the trailer. I helped anyone that wasn’t competent to wrap. One or two helped with that.
*I shipped home alone and unloaded.

This is what it really looked like when “everyone helped out”. In reality, there were one or two parents that worked liked dogs. They made sure their kids worked like dogs. I was there for every single phase. I did the lion’s share of the work. There were at least half of the participants that didn’t do squat. Their idea of “helping out” was “I filled the water buckets on Fri”.

Somewhere down the road I got smart and realized that if my clients wanted to do their own care at the shows, I should just be able to meet them at the ring to coach. Make the entries, then see you at the ring. I knew that there was no way I could do that and hope to present the image I wanted to present at a horse show. I guess I outgrew the “Hey kids, let’s put on a show!”. So I hired help, charged an all-inclusive daycare fee and let people come after to school, sleep in if they didn’t have an early class and leave whenever they were done. You know what? Everyone was much happier. I am paid for my time and my clients can enjoy the horse show.

The moral of my story? Everyone grumbles about the money, but the majority of horse folks either can’t, won’t, or would rather not do the work. They need to pay for it.

[inca]

Well, there are 3 of us who show regularly at my small barn. Trailer stays packed between shows for the most part. So, trainer may have to pack a few things not many. She hauls 1 client’s horse (used to be 2.) So, walk horse on trailer.

At the last A show (2 weeks) I fed all 3 horses every AM and PM and did night check between 9 and 10 pm except for 1 day that the trainer did because I could not stay that particular night (had to drive home and take care of my horses.) Trainer never cleaned a stall and didn’t do any feed or water except the 1 day I could not.

We all helped with set up and tear down and helped load in all in the trailer. Although to be fair she probably did do 50% of the tear down and the rest of us did the other 50% combined. I set up all the buckets in the stalls and put hay and water in the stalls.

I am not saying this to complain. I love showing with our small group - we have a lot of fun. But, just because your barn is one way doesn’t mean every barn is that way.