Disqualifying rider weeks after a horse show

[OverandOnward]

@skydy

It is difficult if not impossible to make an exception for one person, if the rule is available for all members to access.

Right.

This one is probably a lost cause. Not much to do but suck it up and move on.

And use it as an example of rule changes desperately needed to help the organization grow.

However – when something this ridiculous is done by the leaders of the organization, the whole thing is probably a lost cause. They won’t want change because this is their fishbowl of power.

Sometimes there is enough support to start a new, more rational and reasonable organization (need some committed donors), that events/shows will prefer to sign up with. Maybe have a chance to gradually absorb the old one, maybe after a few more years of their decline.

But if there is no support for improvement in the old organization, or energy to start a new one, it’s time to just move on, find another channel. Might mean a good deal more travel to compete in an out-of-state or out-of-area organization.

[skydy]

The attire rule requiring collared shirts is a rule that prohibits exhibitors from wearing tank tops or T-Shirts in a class that is usually formal enough to require coats (until heat becomes an issue.)

Inexpensive collared shirts are easy to find. The rule doesn’t seem ridiculous to me, nor does the requirement that people know the rules of the classes they enter.

It’s unfortunate that no one mentioned to the exhibitor that they needed a shirt with a collar, but knowing the rules is a basic tenet when participating in any competition.

[OverandOnward]

@skydy

It’s unfortunate that no one mentioned to the exhibitor that they needed a shirt with a collar, but knowing the rules is a basic tenet when participating in any competition.

I doubt anyone argues that.

It’s more that it should have been caught at the time. That’s on the judges, show management and other exhibitors to speak up and enforce at the time. As well as the exhibitor to know the rules.

It’s not important enough to change placings long after the show is concluded. For something less serious than drugs, that causes far more problems than it solves.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

I’d be asking for a refund. Weeks later without a true justification (ie proof that a ammy was actually a pro, etc), it’s just sloppy on the horse show management front. I’d be blasting this horse show on every social media platform and making a mockery of this judgement call. Sure, you might call me a sore loser, but my wallet is also bruised, as well, from this debacle.

[skydy]

@OverandOnward

@skydy

It’s unfortunate that no one mentioned to the exhibitor that they needed a shirt with a collar, but knowing the rules is a basic tenet when participating in any competition.

I doubt anyone argues that.

It’s more that it should have been caught at the time. That’s on the judges, show management and other exhibitors to speak up and enforce at the time. As well as the exhibitor to know the rules.

So, pretty much everyone is responsible, at a schooling show, for not catching the exhibitor breaking the rule in the moment, and the exhibitor who broke the rule is at fault as well?
That’s an awful lot of blame to spread around for a rider who hasn’t followed the attire rules.
It sounds like a show that has limited resources.

I think it is a bit weird to come back several weeks later to enforce an attire rule, however we don’t really know how many volunteers this schooling show had, how thin they may have been spread , the ranking (if any) of the judges they use (schooling show judges may well have judging challenges above and beyond enforcing collar/no collar attire) and there may be no designated “stewards” at the schooling show.

In the absence of more details from the OP, who knows?

[MHM]

Plus the judge at a schooling show may be somebody’s friend or mom. Not necessarily someone with a lot of judging experience.

[skydy]

Exactly. Since we have no details from the OP regarding judges, or stewards (if any) at this point in time, we don’t know the particular circumstances that would allow us to have an informed opinion about the disqualification.

[trubandloki]

I am very much a rule follower and I would be mortified if I had broken a rule and found out later on.

But this type of rule is the type that needs to be enforced at the time it happens. It sounds like more than one show has happened and they are not wanting to go backwards and enforce this rule retroactively for more than one show.

Definitely not the way to grow a show series.
Definitely the way to scream to the world that - we don’t know our own rules at our own shows so if we realize you wore the wrong outfit later on, we will strip you of your placings.

If this was a person doing something that was dangerous or causing serious welfare problems, then yes. But not wearing a collar, that no one noticed at the time, not working.

[Midge]

So, a T shirt?

[trubandloki]

@Midge

So, a T shirt?

My thought was more like one of those sun shirts.

https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/piper-smartcore-long-sleeve-crew-neck-sun-shirt--clearance-22937

https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/smarttherapy-thermobalance-ceramic-crew-short-sleeve-tee-24984

[Midge]

So, a fancy T shirt.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Unpopular opinion time but…

Years ago, when I was at a h/j barn there was an ultra-local show series (no USEF classes, but end-of-the-year prizes as well as day-of). A woman at my barn had a (kind of nasty and difficult horse). She competed in the beginner hunter classes, which I believe had the restriction that the horse couldn’t have competed at above 2 feet in an over fences class. I think she ended up towards the end in the mid-tier range of end-of-the-year awards.

Then, she was eliminated–turns out the horse HAD competed at, like 2’6" or something, had some health issues, she took a break from showing, and was coming back. She felt it was petty to penalize her because it was like he was coming back from scratch.

HOWEVER…(I can’t believe I’m saying this as the least fashionable person on the planet)…this is why I kind of side with eliminating this rider. Every person has a “reason” they violate certain rules (usually) but even if the steward doesn’t catch it immediately you’re still responsible for knowing them. Maybe the stewards at a local schooling show are too busy making sure everyone is wearing a helmet or not jumping jumps backwards in the warmup to catch something like a shirt with no collar.

Now, I can see SCRATCHING the rule you need a collar, for sure, at least for summer shows. But if you overlook this one “dumb” rule, then another person will come forward about another “dumb rule violation too petty to be penalized for.”

If the rule is petty, get rid of the rule, or change the language to “shirts with collars are strongly encouraged but will not result in rider elimination.”

[trubandloki]

I have no problem with the rule, and I would have had no problem with them eliminating this rider at the shows for not following the rule.

But anything that you are enforcing because you randomly looked at show day photos seems wrong to me.
What if they are looking at show day photos a month later and realize that Dobbin was on the wrong lead thru that whole end of the ring and it was not noticed that day and Dobbin got first place?

No one noticed that day, it was not something secret or hidden. No one noticed and no one cared that day. Going back and deciding from photos is not right.

[Night_Flight]

Maybe I’m too nice, but at a schooling show that is trying to encourage participants in the sport, I would handle attire violations by reminding the rider of the rules and letting them know that if they dont correct it before their next class, they will be eliminated in that next class.

It’s not something that is giving the horse or rider an advantage, like using an unacceptable bit or some sort of disallowed tack. Instead, I would let the rider complete the class they are at the ring for and then give them a warning for the next class before proceeding to elimination.

[vxf111]

This. I occasionally used to judge 4H shows. Riders would come in with prohibited tack/apparel. If I saw before they started, I would tell the steward to tell them to remove it. If I didn’t see it until they started, I would tell the steward to tell them to remove it before the next class. I wouldn’t penalize in the class where the rider was unaware. I would for subsequent classes if the rider didn’t remove the tack/apparel. It’s supposed to be a learning experience, not the Olympics.

[MHM]

I can see both sides of the coin.

Maybe another exhibitor complained after the fact, and since nobody caught it on the day, they wanted to look at the pictures to verify the claim before they took any action.

If they’re going to be casual about their rules, then they need to be casual about all their rules. Which seems like a recipe for disaster.

Or maybe they could add a line to the prize list saying that all results will be considered final at the end of the show day or something similar. Somehow I doubt they are doing drug testing at that level, which would take more time to complete.

[Mardi1]

@Tini_Sea_Soldier1

I’d be blasting this horse show on every social media platform and making a mockery of this judgement call. Sure, you might call me a sore loser, but my wallet is also bruised, as well, from this debacle.

What would you gain by blasting the horse show on every social media platform ? You (figuratively) were the one who broke the rule. And so no refunds for you. BTW, the OP hasn’t said if the offending rider knew about the attire rule when competing. That’s kind of important to the story !

[Djones]

I once served as a GMO President. NEVER again! We ran by USEF rules.

adult competitor wins high-point for the day’s SCHOOLING show. Hooray.
3 DAYS later, she tallies her scores again and realizes she didn’t win.
She blows up my phone texting me to make it right since a child actually won high point.
I thanked her for coming forward, but pointed her to the rule book.
She blows up even more, ranting about the issue all day of scoring issues.

PAUSE FOR DRAMATIC EFFECT.

One - 1!!! - other test was mis-scored and written down on the dressage test, and then immediately caught by the scorer, and that scratch/through correction was verbally conveyed directly to that rider as she gathered her scored test.

So Flouncy Pants turned 58 accurately scored tests and 2 tests with calculation score issues into A Thing.

Deep Breath.

I told Flouncy that maybe just maybe the ladies who descending upon the room where tests were being scored, chatting and laughing and whooping it up and pinot grigioing distracted said scorer who’d been diligently and accurately VOLUNTEERING ALL DAY.

Sigh.

She apologized. Sort of.

I hate people, especially those who blow up VOLUNTEERS.

[2bayboys]

Whatever happened to the “opinion of the judge is final”?

If the judge pinned the non-collar-wearing exhibitor without penalizing the infraction, then taking away the prizes days or weeks later due to somebody looking at show photos seems like it’s opening an even bigger can of worms. Are exhibitors now empowered to overrule the judge if they find an equipment violation in photos after the fact?

If it wasn’t important enough to bring up at the time of violation, then the “protestor” should be told that the judge’s decision stands.

[MsM]

It seems like the club has three justifiable choices:

1. Do nothing. Let the results stand. Especially if this isnt a protest by a participant, but just someone noticing the photos. And make sure someone knows to tell this person before she shows next time that the attire is not acceptable.

2. Strip the rider of her placings and points. This assumes that the rule was clear and she should have known.

3. Issue a “This day forward” statement clarifying the dress code. Let the exhibitor keep the placings. Members may not know USEF rules in this area and spelling it out may prevent future problems. Might be worthwhile looking at other areas that might need clarification as well (whips, spurs, bits, etc)