Disqualifying rider weeks after a horse show

How old was this person? If it was a kid, I am really, really, really not inclined to enforce the rule post hoc. How otherwise relaxed was this show? Was every USEF rule being enforced to the T or were others been selectively loosened or ignored.

Right now people are really confused about shirts. I think both eventing and dressage have changed the rules a couple times recently and that would make me more inclined NOT to penalize-after-the-fact here as compared to a rule that has been fixed and in place for longer and therefore should really be known to all.

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Personally, having been on the executive of a riding club, Iā€™d go with option 1 or 2.

I used to help newer members if they were planning on going into the ring with equipment or attire that wasnā€™t appropriate if I saw them, even though I was showing myself that day. Most of the executive members would try to be helpful that way. Iā€™d lend out everything from hats to bits.

We also made sure that our club rules were available. They were printed off and available at the secretaryā€™s desk (this was back before PDF downloads of everything!) for members to pick up so they had a hard copy. It was a labour to put together, covering many different disciplines but people had easy access.

I wonder how the club makes itā€™s rules available? Assuming they have some sort of newsletter a reminder of their version of proper attire etc might be in order.

@vxf111, I love your style! Perfect attitude for schooling shows.

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I went back and read the original post and the rider competed in several shows without a single person noticing.

One show? Sure, rules are rules, so go ahead and DQ. But this was an issue that was apparently overlooked multiple times by every single person at each one of these shows, and to me, that increases the show managementā€™s culpability.

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If the club is going to go to the effort of eliminating a rider several weeks after the fact , then the club needs to make sure what the rules and inform all the people who entered that show and all those that enter future shows.

If the ā€œviolationā€ was such that no one noticed or called attention to it until several weeks later, or if they had to wait for the photographers photos to review a complaint, then that is on them, I know there are rules about the use of videos as evidence of violation to challenge a judges decision, but I am not sure that applies weeks after the fact

if their rules are ā€œwe follow USEF rulesā€ then they need a USEF judge and steward there to monitor and arbitrate.

They opened a can of worms, in my opinion. If they say ā€œthats the rulesā€ then I assume they require official measurement cards for ponies, Safe Sport testing by the adults, And next year will require proof of microchips?

ā€œthats the rulesā€ does not mean arbitrary enforcement of which and what rules.

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Except little rinkydink barns or schooling shows can get away with any stupid decision because there is no authority over them, clients can only vote with their feet (or hooves) and leave

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I donā€™t usually approve of creative verbs such as this, but Iā€™m giving this one a pass because :joy:.

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I was involved with a group that ran local horse shows for years. No rating, not even county-level, but often attended by local people who did show at higher-level shows because it was an easy, cheap outing. Over the years at various times I managed shows, worked in the show office, measured ponies, wrote and re-wrote rules, hired judges, set courses, directed our all-Marine ring crew while they set courses, watered rings, kind of you name it.

LSS, I agree with the concept of the judgeā€™s decision is final for something like this that falls under the purvey of what they are supposed to be judging. I would have fought my board pretty hard on this one.

I donā€™t know about this local circuit, but our shows didnā€™t have stewards (the show manager was the de facto steward), and often hired non-USEF judges. But we did say that we deferred to USEF rules unless otherwise stated in our rules, as do a number of shows and circuits out here. So IMHO, you donā€™t need to have USEF personnel to say youā€™re using USEF-based rules.

We had a LOT of rules. More pages of rules than the pages that listed the classes and the rules were in tiny print. There were sections of rules, including general rules, class-specific rules, rules for year-end awards, and cross-entry restrictions, We included highlights of certain rules where we were different than some other shows (allowing trot changes in certain classes without penalty, for example) with the packets that went to the judges. People made fun of us at times, but we never had a situation like the OPā€™s so there you go.

There was a statute of limitations on making claims (mostly bookkeeping-related) related to year-end awards once theyā€™d been posted in the following monthā€™s newsletter (this was awhile ago, but at least the newsletter wasnā€™t printed on stone tablets), but I donā€™t remember the exact wording. Iā€™m pretty sure there was a statement about the judgeā€™s decision being final.

One incident concerned someone who showed in an under saddle class with a martingale. Someone pointed it out to the judge (who did happen to be a USEF judge) at the end of the class as the ribbons were being awarded, and he noted that it was going to stand because he had seen the horse without a martingale at an other (rated) show at the same facility a week or two before and ā€œit was fine.ā€ OK and thatā€™s the way it was, year-end points and all.

I also recall an issue with someone showing in a division for which they werenā€™t eligible that wasnā€™t noticed until the week after the show. We reassigned the awards and re-calculated the points. But this wasnā€™t something that the judge was likely to notice as part of judging.

One more note, which is that Iā€™m a huge fan of catching someone before they make the error that might get them eliminated. See someone going into a flat class with a martingale or a hunter round with wraps. Step up, say something, and offer to help. There was a fuss with the young jumper final series at the Oaks last fall. I donā€™t remember the details, but it was something to do with the horseā€™s attire that would have been painfully noticeable to anyone present. Maybe it was polos on the hind legsā€“the young jumper rules are pretty particular about that, and her polos were a bright color. Anyhow, they let her show over the week like this and no one said anything. No judges, stewards, competitors, or casual observers. She won the final day. They took photos. Then, a day or two later, they handed down the decision that her horseā€™s attire wasnā€™t within specs and they took everything away. Sorry, but IMHO thatā€™s just mean.

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I was seeing red I was so angry. So much entitled behavior and ladies who lunch on a zillion dollar estate getting drunk with the owner. Eff yā€™all. Iā€™m gonna get a one day weekend and go back to work while you bitch and moan about an award you didnā€™t win. What the actual eff.

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First, people need to realize that USEF and USHJA, USEA, et all do not have any jurisdiction over unrecognized, non-sanctioned events. So ā€œshow me the USEF ruleā€ doesnā€™t mean squat at local schooling shows. Many will use USEF rules as a guideline however.

Iā€™ve had this similar sort of thing happen where the show requires appropriate dress like a collared shirt vs T-shirt and back in the day - no full chaps. Many of these organizations have year end awards so what generally happened was that if a rider was inappropriately attired, they kept their ribbons but didnā€™t get points toward year end awards. I would imagine thatā€™s what this particular club did. People who are dressed inappropriately are probably schooling a greenish horse most likely donā€™t care about the points anyway.

This. They can say they follow USEF/USEF rules but the reality is they are not enforceable. Theres nobody to enforce them after the fact. They are fully self regulated.

The show manager and judge, maybe even the gate person, can call out illegalities and might be able to keep them out of the ring, at best. If the club running the unrated show wants revise the result later, they can do whatever they want. IME, often its the show managers DD, they own or have an interest in the horse or similar so they benefit from post competition placing revisions

Some non rated shows are self regulated extremely well and police their competitions to the letter of USEF /USHJA rules consistently. Other non rated shows areā€¦wellā€¦sh*t shows of favoritism, conflict of interest, self interest and personal favoritism and/ or vendettas. Actually rated shows are also full of that crap but there are actual, enforceable rules that minimize it.

One reason personally preferred to show rated and just a select few non rateds, even if it cost more meaning fewer shows, was something closer to a level playing field and consistent experience.

When I worked at non rated shows, most had a line on the prize list that protests must be made immediately in the show office/ at the entry booth or table and all accounts closed by end of show. Not a bad idea despite sometimes getting ugly. Better then behind closed doors back stabbing after the fact.

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From the prize list at a current HITS show:
ā€œATTIRE: Proper attire is required in all hunter, equitation rings during competition as well as Jumper classes with $1,000 or more in prize money. Proper Attire is requested for all other jumper classes.ā€

Proper attire is required in some divisions, and requested in others.
I havenā€™t seen this before (probably because I havenā€™t dived into a prize list in awhile)
If proper attire isnā€™t a requirement in the other jumper classes, what kind of attire are riders allowed to wear ?

Iā€™ve judged some unrated schooling shows, and itā€™s up to the judge and management and ideally the gate person to have an idea of what the applicable rules are. Weā€™ve got pretty relaxed attire and equipment rules. But I wonā€™t hesitate to call out something thatā€™s against the rules or a safety issue. There was some open schooling in the ring, and I had to ask a trainer to take the dressage whip away from her kid before she started jumping. And not to come into the show ring with it. I had to radio to the gate person to explain to a kid and their trainer why I wasnā€™t going to pin them in their first classā€¦because they did 2 opening circles (at the direction of the trainer which I could hear from my end of the ring), and I had to count one as a refusal. Please fix that for the next class. I think these things including apparel are of the nature that it needs to be addressed at the time, and if the judge and management donā€™t notice it, then oh well. Same as if I missed your horse trot 2 steps while I was looking at the card. So someone who videoed the round can complain later? No thanks.

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Jumpers have three levels of attire in the rulebook: standard, proper, formal. Standard attire doesnā€™t require a coat and is usually what you see in schooling classes where people wear polo or sun shirts. Proper attire requires a coat and formal attire further limits the colors you can wear.

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Current USEF rule:

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I have an example of the opposite situation, a rider who was eliminated on the day of and it turns out should not have been according to after the fact show photos. An event rider I know was eliminated for missing a fence on cross country. Rider clearly remembered jumping that fence, and protested to TD. TD ruled that the jump judgeā€™s decision stood in spite of rider recalling it differently (no other witnesses known at the time). It turned out that the show photographer had captured the horse and rider successfully jumping the fence in question, but the rider did not see the pictures until after the division had been placed. The picture didnā€™t help the rider get his deserved placing, but did offset some embarrassment among his peers.

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While I agree that following the rules is important if the organization wants to grow its membership and volunteers they will need to be careful with how they handle this . To be honest this strikes me as a little bit petty. It would be one thing if the rider had been warned / correction made at the show or shortly ( like with 24 hours) after but to wait weeks and then correct the situation is not the way to go if you want to build your organization. As someone who has seen some petty stuff at the local level I would not give my money / time to an organization that is run like this .

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I think that the club needs to introduce a statute of limitations on protests. The clubs whose board I used to serve on limited protests about apparel and equipment to the end of the show. Eligibility protests could be lodged at any time. Board members or stewards could raise protests regarding eligibility.

In this era of cellphone cameras and everything we do being recorded, itā€™s easy for someone to come back 6 months later and ask for someoneā€™s head (or ribbons and points) because they realized that little Emma went in the ring on a pony wearing polos or a martingale or a bonnet that went unnoticed by all involved at the time.

When I was on that board years ago a judge politely stopped a rider for making repeated circles at the end of the ring, at the request of the trainer. Pony was looking hard at a banner on the fence and trainer wanted him to get used to it and had the kid circle 3 or 4 times. The kid was a pretty advanced kid who did some rated stuff, as did trainer. Judge finally told trainer that the pair were excused from their red/blue trip before jumping a fence. Trainer ranted and said heā€™d never come to our shows again.

The problem is that many of the ā€œjudgesā€ at the smallest shows are not aware of the rules that the handbook mentions when they say they defer to USEF rules.

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Thats actually called ā€œ presentingā€ the jump to the horse after they enter the ring to begin their round. Probably get away with shaping a SINGLE courtesy circle to let the horse see it. More then that crosses the line into schooling. Letting them waste everybodyā€™s time tying up the ring while they school is just rudeā€¦and would get them whistled out much sooner at a rated show.

The most pathetic thing here is a red/ blue class is a schooling class to let horse and rider look around and get used to ring and jumps, maybe make a few mistakes at a lower cost before going into a ā€œrealā€ class for points and prizes. One step up from a ticketed warm up. Some ā€œ trainerā€.

Can you expand a bit as to the context? This wasnā€™t a schooling ring? It was the circle before a judged round?

At a very informal schooling show I can see that being forgiven, if it was only 2-3 circles. But that would depend on the judge and the schooling show. The unrecognized shows that are trying to be a prep to recognized of course will stick to the recognized show rules.

And ā€¦ Iā€™ll defer a derail into what some trainers manage to get away with at shows. There are old lengthy COTH threads on the subject. It isnā€™t germaine to changing the results weeks later. :slight_smile:

A ā€œred blueā€ class has an entry fee and is judged but only red and blue ribbons are awarded. In Jumpers all clean rounds within the time get a blue, time faults or, maybe, 1 rail get a red.

In Hunters aboveā€¦ohhhā€¦.say 90 get a blue, 85-89 a red. That can vary depending on the show, could be above 80 a blue, 75-79 the red.

Its a practice or warm up class but you go in to be judged. Most of these shows have the rings open with the courses set for schooling in the early AM.

This thing for this trainer and rider to do, IMO, is to get in there and use the red blue round to school up to and over that fence, not circle past it it 3 or 4 times, teaching it nothing. Go to that fence and school his butt over it.

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