not more elegant by any stretch - appearing to be a better mover than they truly are to the novice observer. Adrenelin will cover many an unsoundness or imbalance and speed will fool many an eye into thinking they see athletic power and a forward free moving stride.
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Interesting, thanks. I still have a hard time thinking that a recently gathered horse that is freaked out and looking for an escape over uneven and snowy ground in a relatively small enclosure is likely to exhibit its best movement, but if you can explain that I’m all ears.
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you don’t seem to be understanding me very well - not sure if I am being unclear or if english is not your first language? I will bow out now, and good luck with your horse shopping,
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I too was wondering what in those horses could be seen as any kind of athletic.
They were motoring along stiffly, practically all of them.
Athletic in horses mean fluid and like an accordion, gathering and stretching and balancing over a changing center of gravity, using it’s back end as the end of a coil, that transmits energy over the back thru the neck to move the whole body forward.
Those horses seemed to be moving like made of several parts jointed with pins to each other, like a kid’s toy train with several carts moving here and there as it is pulled along, not a whole body working in space as one.
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WOW, salty much? Ta-ta, won’t miss you.
Obviously not understanding something indicates a lack of proficiency in communication; the inability to explain, on the other hand, is demonstrative of a good ability to communicate. That makes so much sense.
I will apologise as that was a rude response on my part - perhaps another day I will try to explain my thoughts in a more coherent fashion, but for now I am off to treat my “saltyness” caused in part by being punted into a wall by a client’s spoilt draft horse with a second does of pain killers.
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Ouch, that sounds painful. Thanks for the apology, no worries!
Funny thing about us horse people, we spend so much time with the horses that sometimes they get in our way of dealing with people, haha.
I hope you have a fast recovery!
. I got him when he was five.
Here’s what he looked like when I first got him:
I got him because at the time I wanted a project - and he has been the biggest project ever!
I don’t know how much experience you have in training horses, but in my experience (and the experience of others I know who have mustangs), mustangs are in another category. The older the horse is when you get him, the more difficult he may be to work with him - especially if he’s been intact for most of his life. I love my mustang, but he is a tough-minded horse. Good in some respects, not so good in others.
My old farrier loved him - said that people didn’t breed the brains or the feet out of him.
All of the mustangs I’ve seen/known do have big heads, are thick through the throatlatch, are hardy and stout, and have excellent bone and feet and strong backs.
I think if you buy through an auction, that is a very risky way to do it. Best if you can go to an area where they have the holding pens so you can see them and assess temperament, conformation, and movement in person.
I’ve done a lot with my mustang. Nothing fancy, but some schooling dressage shows, competitive trail, a bit of jumping and XC schooling, clinics, some remedial cow stuff, and lots of and mostly trail riding. As a trail horse he is awesome. As a dressage horse, he struggles. What comes super easy to my pony mare is hard for him. While Pony picks up and retains things and progresses very quickly, with Mac, his tough-mindedness makes it harder. Now, of course, each horse is an individual, but I’ve been to lots of clinics with lots of mustangs and it has been a common theme. I’ve known a couple people who sold their horses on because they (the people) didn’t want to deal with it and couldn’t hack it anymore.
Because of him, though, I’ve had to up my game and so I’ll be forever grateful for him in my life and for forcing me to learn more and expand my horizons and deepen my knowledge.
Here are lots of pictures just because.
If you have any questions, I’m happy to answer them.
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[quote=“Pocket Pony,post:29,top. I got him when he was five.
Here’s what he looked like when I first got him:
I got him because at the time I wanted a project - and he has been the biggest project ever!
I don’t know how much experience you have in training horses, but in my experience (and the experience of others I know who have mustangs), mustangs are in another category. The older the horse is when you get him, the more difficult he may be to work with him - especially if he’s been intact for most of his life. I love my mustang, but he is a tough-minded horse. Good in some respects, not so good in others.
My old farrier loved him - said that people didn’t breed the brains or the feet out of him.
All of the mustangs I’ve seen/known do have big heads, are thick through the throatlatch, are hardy and stout, and have excellent bone and feet and strong backs.
I think if you buy through an auction, that is a very risky way to do it. Best if you can go to an area where they have the holding pens so you can see them and assess temperament, conformation, and movement in person.
I’ve done a lot with my mustang. Nothing fancy, but some schooling dressage shows, competitive trail, a bit of jumping and XC schooling, clinics, some remedial cow stuff, and lots of and mostly trail riding. As a trail horse he is awesome. As a dressage horse, he struggles. What comes super easy to my pony mare is hard for him. While Pony picks up and retains things and progresses very quickly, with Mac, his tough-mindedness makes it harder. Now, of course, each horse is an individual, but I’ve been to lots of clinics with lots of mustangs and it has been a common theme. I’ve known a couple people who sold their horses on because they (the people) didn’t want to deal with it and couldn’t hack it anymore.
Because of him, though, I’ve had to up my game and so I’ll be forever grateful for him in my life and for forcing me to learn more and expand my horizons and deepen my knowledge.
Here are lots of pictures just because.
If you have any questions, I’m happy to answer them.
[/quote]
What fun pics!
Can I ask what HMA he’s from?
It’ll be at least several more years before I’m in a position to get my mustang (hence why I’m trying to learn a LOT about sizing a horse up from a distance before I find myself at the facility). I have to wait until I’m stationed back in the US and know that I’ll be back there for a long time, or until I have to money to export, but the challenge with that is either a lot of travel to train and bond with the horse during the first year, or picking from only the sale authority horses, and I’d rather not limit myself to that, even though I’ve heard of some amazing horses come out of there.
FWIW, I see the same things. The faults I’d complain about (in terms of a horse who will do the jobs I want) are the sloping croup and the neck that’s thick and ties in low to his chest. I am basing my critique on the penultimate picture. He’s not square or even standing still (as we’d like for evaluating conformation), but his legs are the most underneath him of any of the moving pictures offered.
To me, the only reason to care about “pretty” or “unpretty” conformation is because it makes a biomechanical job we want done easier or harder for a horse, or because some bit of anatomy looks like a “weak link” in the animal-- something that promises to wear out earlier than the rest of the body. To me, the steep angle of the croup places a limit on how much power the hind limbs can produce and transmit to the rest of the body. The neck tying in low and being pretty thick at the base (not all of this is caused by his being whole at 5), mean it will be hard for him to lift his rib cage between his scapulae and gain a lot of freedom in his shoulder.
That said, I think he does move a bit better than his conformation says he should. And he looks strong and balanced. He’d be a fun project.
ETA: The second picture gives you the best sense of any of the stills of how athletic he is. In that phase of the trot (and assuming he’s using his body the best he can, as it is now), he should be as uphill in his posture as he can get. And, at this moment in the trot, he should be reaching under with that right hind as far as he can. I think he is powering along, though perhaps not a full throttle, so you are seeing what he has. (But also, the trot can be improved, meaning that with some long term and correct riding, that same picture would look different-- he’d look uphill and he’d put his hind foot on the ground before- or with the front foot, rather than leaving that front foot on the ground to support his weight as along as possible.)
I’d like to know how wide or narrow he is from the front. That tells me a lot about a horse’s physical maturity. It also tells me whether he’s wide-looking from the side, but narrows up in his heart girth. I don’t think this horse does that (given the combination of breeds that probably compose his pedigree). But I do worry about Mustangs being weedy small. It can be hard to balance on a small, agile and non-domesticated animal! Plus, I look for conformational things in the back that mean that the poor HO ends up spending more than the saddle(s) than the horse!
If you are equipped to train him, I don’t see why he couldn’t do the job you intend for him.
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I don’t think the horse is awful, or amazing, just a decent horse.
The one concerning flaw I see is his small eyes. It could just be the pics, but I want large intelligent eyes.
OP this horse may not be full grown. They often grow/mature until 7 yrs.
OP is talking about me, in a thread on the WESTERN forum. I posted links to Zips Chocolate Chip and Huntin For Chocolate, who are AQHA stallions, bearing in mind this was the WESTERN forum.
http://www.zipschocolatechip.com/
http://www.rodrockquarterhorses.com/hfc.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8bh5b9dqIU
I intended to be helpful by posting examples of 2 horses with good conformation, videos to show how this translates to good movement, and both stallions have produced a multitude of successful offspring. ZCC lived to age 30 and HFC is still going strong at age 21. Both have reputations for passing along their outstanding temperments.
But OP just wants validation of the superiority of the mustang conformation, not any kind of proof that form follows function.
I originally was going to put up a picture of Galileo, but then changed my mind because it was the WESTERN forum. OP do you like this guy any better?
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I think what this means is that the horse will use his body with more power when he’s amped up. He’ll carry himself more uphill, perhaps have a longer moment of suspension in the trot and, sometimes, take longer strides if he’s feeling cocky and enjoying his movement, not scared by something. That changes at the canter, of course, with some horses opting for a Pepe LePew pronging kind of gait-- all four feet down on the ground in rapid succession, tail up over the back, etc.
So you can be fooled into thinking a horse has more power and better balance than he has if he’s feeling really good at liberty. And some of them find it comfortable to settle into a longer-than-usual stride trot for a long side of a pen. That’s where you might get a still or a few seconds of video that make the horse look long and fluid.
That same horse, however, might go ahead and give you an ugly, unhelpful Pepe LePew canter a second later.
I agree with the OP that the stills show this horse trotting in some phase of the gait, or even during a downward transition. I don’t recall seeing any canter.
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Not the best picture of Galileo, makes his throat-latch look thick, which may not be with his head a tad more forward.
He is not truly standing straight in front, compacting his front end a little, makes him look like he is not standing under enough ground, shorter underline than his top demands?
Maybe he is a little calf kneed if properly stood up?
Not to any noticeable degree, he ties in behind the knee beautifully, a great supporting apparatus there, where calf knee really would be considered cosmetic, if it indeed was.
Looking at his record, I would say his conformation, as a performer, was but one part of what made him great.
Conformation is an obvious starting point when assessing a horse, but should not be considered the end all of all a horse is and can do.
We had a belgian draft horse, that also looked like one and moved like one, the ground shook when he walked by, that happen to be, in his mid teens, our regional open jumper champion for a few years. :lol:
I think he’s very cute too. Nice movement IMO. Yes – thick in the throatlatch, short back etc. – but overall he looks (to me) like a packer – fun little horse – Mustang tough like the Aussie Brumby.
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I would caution if you have not had any experience with training a horse from scratch I would not start with a mustang. They have quick reflexes and would be difficult to determine how they are to deal with when you get them straight from the range.
I have seen some really nice ones. Not only Elisa Wallace but also Betsy Moles here in GA takes them from the range and competes in the mustang challenges. One of Betsy’s mare’s a lovely bay roan I would have easily kept her for a dressage horse. Elisa has a palomino for sale right now that is lovely packer type horse. A good mustang has a great mind and are versatile and often nice movers, if not great movers. A difficult mustang can be dangerous to be around. Some just are not cut out to be domesticated, especially the older ones who have been on the range longer. One of Elisa’s last ones she worked with was an older stallion that took quite awhile to come around and Elisa is quite experienced in horses and mustangs.
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Right.
From the many feral horses we started, the one that really never was any kind of safe, decent riding horse, was caught as a four year old.
Some we started that were maybe 8-9 years old ended up quickly making very nice, safe school horses.
You can’t always go by age, horses are who they are, if domestic or feral, some more complicated than others to work with.
The trouble with feral horses and the general public is that the general public can’t really assess what a horse will turn out to be when an untouched, rank feral horse, unless they are learning along a professional training several of those and relying on that trainer’s expertise.
The stories of someone just adopting a mustang and living happily after are suspect.
I expect there were many times in there where they wondered what next, more than with a horse that has been around humans and our human world most of it’s life.
The feral horse we had was super gentle practically all of the time, but if something really set him off, he became explosive, more reactive than another horse would have.
Once, we had saddled our horses by the tack room door.
They were standing there inside the barn, half asleep when the rider of the feral horse walked out with the bridle in one hand, a can of OFF in the other and, hands busy, rather than touching the horse to let him know were addressing it, started spraying, catching the horse by surprise.
He broke wind and sold out, ran thru the barn door and went to bucking outside.
Thankfully the saddle was already tight, or if it had turned or half come off his hind end, that horse, in his panic, would have gone over and thru anything and get injured in the process.
As it was, he stopped bucking outside, turned around and stood there, breathing hard and wondering what had just happened.
We retrieved him, finishes spraying him and went on to gather cattle without any more surprises.
A domestic horse would maybe have scared, but his reaction would not have been so drastic, the world in general not a scary place forever, that a kind of horse PSTD moment for that horse.
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I rode a feral horse as a teen, trained her to do a lot. She was small, fast, and Hardy. Great back country trail horse. However her short thick neck was an issue for getting vertical flexion at the poll. I taught her lots of lateral movement and she went well Western but didn’t have the reach of gait to do English or dressage well.
I am in a similar position that way with my current Paint mare. We are schooling collected to medium trot transitions, I can feel they are happening, but from the ground it doesn’t look like much. If I had spent all these years with an Andy or lippy we’d be floating a foot off the ground by now:).
So I would caution anyone who wants to go the dressage route with a stock horse or grade stock horse type, which is what many feral horses are. Some will have the ability others not, and IME none will be up there with other breeds.
Ok, I see the horse isn’t galloping in all pics. But he is moving in all of them, so no real conormation phtos. If OP wants to learn how folks evaluate conformation from pics, the practice of the condo photo is key.
Also I think OP would love Deb Bennett’s stuff and highly encourage a visit to her ESI website.
As far as movement in turnout, all green or unbroken horses move better at liberty than they will under saddle for years, maybe forever, unless they get trained up to a proper extended trot, which is rarer than you might think.
For instance my paint mare has a lovely passage. But she only shows it for 30 seconds once a year when she first joins her old herd on summer pasture. I doubt we will ever get it under saddle. Absolutely horses running free will show you their biggest freeest gaits.
If OP has decided they like the mustang type, short, sturdy, big head, short neck, that’s OK by me. This will probably make for a good tough using horse with some big advantages and some limitations as well.
My point is that within this type or outline of a horse, OP should choose one with good straight legs, a neck that ties on higher rather than lower (as distinct from carrying the head high or low) , and good hip land hind end angles.
I can’t tell any of this from action photos.
If OP really wants to self educate on this, DB’s website and book are the place to go for ideas how to diagram and analyze cobfo photos. I don’t follow all her ideas on feed and training but her confo work is informed by her profession as a paleoligist and is the most sophisticated I’ve found. I am still observing IRL to see if her comments on form and function bear out and so far they seem to.
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I would guesstimate the horse in question to be around 14h. Analyzing conformation, good or bad, is largely dependent on what you want to DO with said horse; specific conformation traits that are desirable in a dressage horse or a jumper may not be at all relevant if you want to make the horse a barrel racer or rope horse. Not knowing what OP will want to do with the future mustang…
That said, as is common with mustangs, he has a shorter, thicker neck. Good for a rope horse, not so good for a dressage horse. Shoulder angle seems to be decent - not as laid back as I would personally like to see, but a touch better than many mustangs. This, along with the distance from the point of shoulder to the elbow, allows him to reach forward fairly well with the front legs - he’s got a bit of knee action but appears to be a fairly efficient mover, which is desirable for a working horse whether on the ranch or out on the trail. He has typical mustang short and somewhat upright pasterns, is about average on the “downhill” spectrum and slightly steep through the croup, but not severely so. He is very short coupled with a strong loin connection and appears to be sufficiently broad through the chest, which will make him quite sturdy and likely very handy.
His head is neither here nor there. Oregon mustangs commonly have big, coarse heads, but this guy’s is not all that bad. He looks useful, not particularly high-strung and seems cautious but curious.
OP, you might also consider looking at the reservation horses that come out of Yakima and Warm Springs. They are not BLM regulated so no brands, just herds of feral mixed blood horses. The babies and some adult horses are rounded up every year and sold as an attempt at keeping the herd numbers from getting out of hand. Both herds have quite a wide range of body types, some more drafty and others lighter, more TB-like, and from what I hear they are a little easier and quicker to gentle than BLM horses.
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