Thank you so much!!
This was incredibly informative. I really appreciate how you explained in a lot of detail what you meant and WHY you thought it was important to notice.
Thank you, I really appreciate that you came back to explain your stance. I feel I learn so much more when someone can describe the ‘why’s’ of what they consider pros or cons in conformation.
I’m interested in transitioning to learning classical dressage not so that I can climb the levels in competition so much, but so that I can better understand the mechanics of the horse I’m riding and develop better connection. So I won’t be too bothered if the horse can’t do things fabulously, but just want to work more with dressage on whatever horse I happen to end up with.
This is super useful, thank you for your considered critique! I hadn’t considered looking at those horses, I’ll check it out!
This makes sense, thank you for explaining it!
My mustang is from Nevada. He wasn’t from an HMA, per se, but from a range where it was decided they didn’t want feral horses there anymore so they rounded them up.
To me, now that I have a mustang, they are very easy to pick out - just as a TB or QH or Arab. They are similar in their large heads, size, and shape of body.
Your comment about having a lot of time to travel back and forth, train, and bond with a prospective horse caught my eye. These horses need daily training and interaction. Every time you are near that horse, you are training it. So the training starts even before the “training,” if you will. Every time you (or someone) goes out to feed, water, muck, hang out. Everything you do before you even slip a halter over their head is training them. Of course, you need the approved type of facility for them as well. There are guidelines for type of fencing, height, type of trailer you can take them home in, etc. You may actually want to look at a TIP trainer for what mustangs they have, as such a trainer is an “approved” trainer to take on the horse and get it gentled and ready for “adoption.”
I would not consider exporting a mustang unless it has already been trained such that it is at least solid and dependable in its ground work and handling.
I looked at the pictures of the mustang in your original post. To me he looks similar to most mustangs in size, proportion, conformation. Solid legs, shorter coupled, strong back, thick neck. His head looks not-as-big as other mustangs I’ve met. His face is very cute and that is always a plus. The thing that would make me hesitate with regard to his conformation is how his neck ties in. I like how it comes out of his wither just fine. But where it comes out of his chest appears to be low (this is where a well-stood-up conformation picture would help, but I understand that is not possible when looking at BLM auction horses). With a neck like that it is going to be hard for him to lift and carry himself and he will naturally want to be on the forehand.
I understand you don’t have ambitions to be the world-beater in dressage, and I totally get that. I appreciate a project horse and really enjoy the process of bringing out the best in a horse, whatever that means for that horse. Just know that with a neck like that, it will be really hard to “telescope” the neck while under saddle . . . by that I mean lift at the base of the neck, elongate through the neck, and stretch forward and reach for the bit. Also, when seeing the brief glimpse of him coming forward, it looks like he may paddle on the RF. That may or may not cause a problem - I’ve known a couple GP dressage horses who paddle so it wouldn’t be a deal-breaker for me, just something to notice.
Whatever horse you get, you will be making decisions based on myriad factors. For me, conformation isn’t the first thing on my list of criteria. For me, (especially after my mustang) the number-one thing I want is an ammy-friendly horse who is companionable, keen, willing, and who tries hard to get along and please.
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Sorry to do so many quoted posts in a row, but I haven’t figured how to multi-quote yet with the new board (is it even possible?).
Anyway, I one-hundred-million-billion agree with the bolded parts above. If you don’t know what you are looking for with regard to picking out a non-domesticated horse, then you could be in a world of trouble. The people I know who have been successful with their mustangs (and by successful I mean have a job for the horse where it is safe and useful, forget about moving up any levels in showing) number fewer than the people who have had problems and sold them, given up and turned them out, or given them away.
If the one who is the leader of the herd catches your eye and interests you, you could be in a world of trouble. They do not give up or give in easily and require a mix of firm discipline (I don’t mean beating the horse, but being clear, consistent, and setting strong boundaries for what is and is not acceptable), patience, and persistence.
I remember the first time I had a “NH” guy come out to work with Mac so that I could have help on teaching him to self-load in the trailer. First he wanted to do some ground work with him so we took him back to the arena. Closed the gate, the guy started some ground work, Mac broke free of him and spent a very long time running around. The NH guy tried to use various pressure-and-release tools to make the running his idea so Mac would “ask” to stop and have a release of pressure. Nope. Mac was not going to give in and play that game. He ran for a very long time. Didn’t have that guy back and worked on the trailer loading myself.
I had grown up doing h/j, then dressage, then eventing, then dressage. When I got Mac I was working with a dressage trainer (but he lived at home and trailered to her place . . . although I did try to send him to her for a month, but she never would work with him directly). After Mac bucked me off horribly (really, a HUGE over-reaction to something), I knew that “traditional” dressage training methods were not going to help me with what I needed help with.
I found and used Buck Brannaman’s 7 Clinics DVDs and ended up riding in two clinics with him and some clinics with other well-respected horsemen. That really changed things a lot for us and helped me become more well-rounded in my horsemanship.
So just something else to note. Some traditional english trainers don’t like or won’t want to work with mustangs. A tough one that has the potential to be dangerous just isn’t worth the risk for some. And even if YOU want to do dressage, that doesn’t mean that the horse you choose will want to do it or enjoy doing it.
I’ve had Mac for seven years now (!) and while there are a lot of things I have done and can do with him, he still is tough-minded and still wants to challenge me. But there are other things he’s great at (jump this ditch from a standstill? No problem! Elk jumping out of bushes? Sure. Cows on the trail? Let’s move 'em. Ride bareback and bridle-less? Okey dokey.) and I accept him for who he is.
Sorry for the long posts - probably most here know his story and are sick of it, but if there’s anything here that’s helpful for you or anyone else, I thought I’d share. I do not ever for one minute regret getting him. But it hasn’t been easy.
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[quote=“candyappy,post:45,top or even andies that have fallen on hard times. There are a lot of aztecas of varied quality in the western usa and I seem to get emails from the rescue groups about them quite often. I dare say you can find young aztecas that are functionally feral too. That is, they are technically owned by someone, but have grown up on the range and arrived at the auction/kill pen/ rescue unhandled and with no papers or history.
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Why get a horse not bred and/or appropriate for the task at hand and want to make him do something that is hard for that horse?
All that would do is to make the rider’s work harder and the horse miserable.
On the other hand, a horse that is good at what it is asked to do puts a smile in the rider’s face and a happy to oblige spring in the horse, when things are right for the task at hand.
While dressage training principles are good for most horses, they are just that, a way to help a horse move better.
As a goal in itself, to work to get a horse to move right in that dressage required way, when a horse is barely adequate to travel in that manner?
May end up as an exercise in frustration for everyone.
As a kid they started me in ballet.
Sure, I learned how to move better, but I was hopelessly incoordinated for those kinds of movement and didn’t like any of all that.
A few years later found gymnastics and the rest is history, made it to first alternate of our team, because I was very good at what that required, a good dose of strength to support what we trained for and I had that.
Not every horse is going to be an ace at what is best, but a minimum of proficiency, for what we will ask them to do, sure will help make lives happier.
Anyone that has specific goals for their riding needs to think hard if they want to follow those with a suitable horse, of if their goal is just to get a feral horse because it is a feral horse and then find what is good doing and go that route.
Which is fine, we have horses for all kinds of things we do and that is ok.
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Yes to what @Scribbler is saying also.
It has taken me less than a year to get my almost-5-year-old Pony to the place where it took me a few years to get my mustang to. I’d say it is a combination of conformation (Pony is just obviously put together better) and brains (she was bred to have an outstanding temperament, which she does).
Not every horse who isn’t a mustang has had either the good sense or good bone bred out of them. Just because you don’t care for the conformation of a horse (like the ones you mentioned earlier that Palm Beach posted) doesn’t mean that it isn’t a useful conformation for the horse’s intended purpose. Surely a horse with longevity and who is riding-sound into its late 20s and early 30s must have something going for it in the conformation department.
If you want a small horse with good bone that has been purpose-bred to be conformationally and mentally sound, consider some pony or small-horse breeds as well. Haflinger, Fjord, Connemara, Welsh Cob, Morgan, Quarter Pony all come to mind. Those are “off breeds” that you will see in the dressage arena. Especially if it is your first time taking on a training project . . . you’ll have a much better chance of getting something that likes to work if you know that mommy and daddy liked to work as well.
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Thanks; I find one of the things I still just can’t ‘see’ is how a neck is set. I mean I know it’s a ‘thing’, obviously, I just haven’t developed the eye for it, so it’s good to hear others’ thoughts on it.
I’m familiar with training in the way you discussed it, and would plan on spending several months in the states with it to establish the bond and basic ‘training’ (by training in this sense I mean willing desensitization, leading, trailering, being OK with being touched all over, if possible teaching intramuscular and intravenous injections, taking temperature, getting used to tarps, bags, people, kids, dogs, cars, the general domestic environment; I know that every time you work with a horse you teach it what is acceptable). After the first 3-4 months I’d probably split my time half and half until I can get the title and export. Assuming that’s the path I’d take.
I’ve looked at those breeds, along with many other options, and really admire some of them. This dream is about a mustang, though, and that’s what I’ve decided to pursue, but I WOULD, definitely, have a trainer who I really trust and respect help me select one, trailer one, oversee training, etc., etc.
There are several aspects to how the neck ties in. First is where the actual neckbone enters the shoulder and whether that is higher or lower than the pelvic hip joints which determines if the horse is built uphill or down hill. Second is where the throat enters the body. Third is the style of curve to the neck bone. Is the curve lower in the neck or higher up and to what degree can horse Iift it to raise the base of the neck. Finally there is the question of how much the top of the neck curves as it enters skull. Donkeys and there fore mules have less curve here and are hammer headed for that reason.
A hammer headed horse with a low set on neck and low curve will be effectively ewe necked no matter how he muscles up and will not be able to telescope for the bridle, step one in classical dressage.
There isn’t room to post all the photos etc to illustrate this. Get Deb Bennett’s book. She isn’t a breed snob, she analyzes all kinds of horses.
Thanks, I’ll look into it.
Mustangs do have larger heads than other horses. This one is cute!
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So not all mustangs have larger heads than other breeds. Depending on which herd you get from, they are going to look different. Some end up very drafty, some more refined. A lot of the Nevada mountains herds have proportionate heads to their bodies and IMO pretty decent conformation. As with any breed there are going to be good and bad ones, I have seen Hanoverians that couldn’t make it around a 2’9" jumper course. It’s the same with mustangs.
My personal mustang is a dream to work with. He has the best brain I have ever worked with, of any horse breed. Calm, quiet, willing, and smart. He has a few conformation defects but nothing that will prevent him from having a good career.
Sadly, just like OTTBS, mustangs get a bad reputation. We have all worked with or known of the crazy OTTB but the majority are sensible horses. It’s the same with mustangs. As long as you aren’t planning on running a 4* or aiming of GP Jumpers, a mustang will suit any ammy just fine.
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You are very literally comparing apples to oranges.
That was actually a very nice quarter horse stud. Sure he could use a little more leg bone, but his body isn’t so “extremely muscled” that he is disproportionate or at risk for leg injuries.
It is literally breed standard of any stock horse to have a small, wide muzzle, big eyes, small ears, a large jowl, and shorter head. That;s fine if that’s not what you look for in a horse, but I can’t say that a large head and short neck is what I’m looking for (and we are both fine for our tastes!)
Most pleasure horses are bred to move smoothly and float. Mustangs are “bred” to survive from point A to B to C. Domesticated horses have the luxury of not having to survive on their own or fight for their lives, so their conformation can afford to be pretty.
You seem to only focus on the bad (I don’t know anyone who only turns their horses out for two hours a day, even the fancy show horses at my barn are out for 15+ hours a day and then snooze the entire time they’re inside). Since you seem to know everything about conformation, I’m not sure why you keep asking.
Also, you posted your first critique of a feral mustang in the WESTERN sub forum, and were shown what was considered an ideal WESTERN horse. I’m not sure what you were expecting.
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That’s really interesting to hear. One thing I am almost totally clueless about is looking at yearlings and 2 year olds and making an accurate guess as to how they’ll turn out.
I don’t know as much as you, if you have the time (and patience) I’d love a really detailed explanation of why you would pick him. This is probably demonstrative of how little I know (although part of it, of course, is just how ‘pretty’ we think they are), but I would have totally passed him over.
With my level of knowledge and also personal bias on things that don’t matter so much for performance like color and head shape, I think this one’s much better looking: https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/horse.php?horse_id=9368&mygalleryview=
I’d love to hear a detailed explanation of why you’d pick yours over him, if you’re up to it.
Although I have to say, based on the very short videos, in terms of a more thoughtful, less flighty temperament, I’d go with the one you picked, too.
Gosh, it’s hard to see anything on that gelding’s video, isn’t it. The baby I picked was due in good part to the video - yes, he’s downhill right now and in all likelihood will probably still be a bit downhill as a grown up, but maybe not any moreso than your average TB. I like the freedom he shows and the little bit of push from behind you can see in his trot, and his throatlatch is much finer and cleaner (not thick and bulgy) than many of the others. His neck is still on the short side, yes, but it comes out of his shoulder a touch higher. I really like the way he uses himself overall - he moves through his whole body, not just flailing his legs about like a sewing machine attached to a stiff body. The more I watch that video, the more I’d like to bring him home. And if he’s truly 14.2 as a 2yo, it’s possible he could finish out closer to 16h.
When I looked at all the videos, color and head were not even on my list of considerations, to be honest. And while I enjoy dissecting conformation photos just for the fun of it, I’m WAY more interested in how all the parts interact as a whole and how the horse chooses to use each part. A mustang is certainly never going to look or move like a fancy Warmblood, but I’m OK with that. I’m also totally OK with ugly heads and plain boring colors.
The only thing I strongly dislike about the gelding you linked to is his super thick, short neck. Especially right up behind his jaw - that will make it hard, at best, for him to really come on the bit with the poll as the highest point. Even if he is willing, it might make it physically hard for him to breathe, and he’s likely going to want to curl his neck down to create the “frame” (incorrectly) but allow himself the room to breathe. I’m also concerned about that left front leg - either it has a bump on the knee (could be no big deal) or it is crooked.
This is, of course, just MY opinion. And there are probably hundreds of folks on here who won’t agree with me. Everyone has a particular “type” of horse they like, different conformation traits they look for or try to avoid. Mustangs tend to be most popular with trail riders, hunters, and occasionally endurance folk, and truthfully it will be the odd-man-out horse that has the build to do “serious” dressage, but it’s not impossible to find.
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#4112 would be my pick if you are looking for a gelding. Still has the short neck but I like how the rest is put together.
https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/horse.php?horse_id=9347
Are you close to a holding facility? I like to go in person as besides conformation, temperament is very important.
I would definitely look up TIP trainers in your area if you are serious about getting a Mustang.
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