At what height are you basing this assesment? I ask because there is much more to technique then the front end.
Tim
good post tim.
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5881010]
There is a lot of information that seems to be missed here.
1st, the courses today require horses to jump 1.6m with very little momentum. TB’s use their momentum to jump, not innate scope.
2nd, most TB’s are too short in the topline to have the bascule needed to jump 1.6m course. So yes, most TB’s kill the technique. They jump too flat.
3rd, Gem Twist was a great Show jumping TB many years ago, but where are the similarly bred offspring show jumping. They don’t exist, because there is a good chance GT was a freak. You can not have a breeding program based on the off chance you produce freaks.
4th, The Top Holsteiners jumping in the world are not a mix of all. Every stallion listed siring the top Holsteiners is a full blooded Holsteiner, bred born and raised in Holstein. The other studbooks are like Knowthatfly states. Here is the list of sires for Holsteins top 5: Corrado I, Contender, Caretino, Colbert, Carthago. All Holsteiner with Holsteiner Stamms. You can not say this for the other studbooks with the exception of SF.
5th, The very act of breeding the half bred mothers allows them to breed to the older type stallions. That is why you still see stallions of yesterday being used. They bred their mares to be ready for this. Now we have stallions that are already modern, refined, and blooded. No need for TB. The interest in the outside blood is for as the TB’s were used before, to maintain the Hybrid Vigor, not refinement. The only difference is they don’t have to give up the jump and type like they did with the TB’s.
Tim[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5881026]
At what height are you basing this assesment? I ask because there is much more to technique then the front end.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know there is much more to technique than the front end which is why it’s absurd for you to say that TBs diminish “technique” across the board.
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5881010]
2nd, most TB’s are too short in the topline to have the bascule needed to jump 1.6m course. So yes, most TB’s kill the technique. They jump too flat. [/QUOTE]
There’s more to technique than bascule.
No, Gem Twist was not a freak. His sire was a grand prix jumper and there were many others from that bloodline that were successful at the gp level.
PennyG
I am sure at the time there were, but I am talking about today.
Tim
Penny,
What I mean is with the exception that you couldn’t breed to Gem Twist, I don’t see any lines from his sire show jumping today in GP. There hasn’t been for some time. Many horses at the top are freaks on some level, but they come from a long line of producers. His clone may give the line a second chance, but I am not holding my breath.
Tim
For todays sport I think they do. I do not like the way TB’s jump, and I don’t want their technique influencing my horses. Look, you can argue this all day long, but those breeding the top horses believe this. I happen to agree with them. If breeding to TB’s didn’t diminish scope and didn’t diminsh technique then it would be done all the time. Yet you have to practically hold a gun to a Holsteiner breeders to breed to one. I ask you why you think this is?
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5881301]
For todays sport I think they do. I do not like the way TB’s jump, and I don’t want their technique influencing my horses. Look, you can argue this all day long, but those breeding the top horses believe this. I happen to agree with them. If breeding to TB’s didn’t diminish scope and didn’t diminsh technique then it would be done all the time. Yet you have to practically hold a gun to a Holsteiner breeders to breed to one. I ask you why you think this is? Tim[/QUOTE]
Again, your simple assessment and conclusions are far too black and white and if breeding were that simple, all your horses would be jumping Grand Prix.
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5881301]
For todays sport I think they do. I do not like the way TB’s jump, and I don’t want their technique influencing my horses. Look, you can argue this all day long, but those breeding the top horses believe this. I happen to agree with them. If breeding to TB’s didn’t diminish scope and didn’t diminsh technique then it would be done all the time. Yet you have to practically hold a gun to a Holsteiner breeders to breed to one. I ask you why you think this is?
Tim[/QUOTE]
Must be a lot of gun-totin’ going on in Holstein these days. According to the Verband website:
·the stallions Cancara, Casall, Cassini II, Ibisco xx and Larimar are booked out for this coverage period and cannot cover other Holstein mares.
http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=181&idart=2175
Tim I have to say very good point about the jumping in regards to TB’s with the jumping. Re momentum. I can see this within my own mare. And it’s why in the last few months I have been doing a variety of things to strengthen her hind end. And she isn’t that bad. She actually has very good use of her hind end. And at this stage she can get by winging it if she doesn’t quite get it right. But having watched, really watched a lot of young horses this year in my quest for real knowledge, this is something that I look at. And she does have some strengths that others don’t. But when I undertook all this I wanted to be honest with myself and with my horse. Trust me I’m her biggest critic. Is she a top class International horse, no. But many horses aren’t so I’m not too upset by that. But as I’ve said I wouldn’t be gaining this knowledge otherwise.
I must say the TB stallion approved by the Holsteiner Verband by Winged Love looks to have a pretty nice pop! And more importantly he’s flat bred! The 2 NH bred type horses are shown under saddle. Waterdance would be more NH bred. Probably not so much Ibisco. But Local Suitor has a few nice ones as a broodmare sire. Both Waterdance and Ibisco are out of Local Suitor mares. My yearling is tail female family to Local Suitor. It’s a nice TB family actually.
At any rate, I’m rambling
Terri
I thought the xx has been added in the past to add quick reflexes and to ensure jumping across the jump. (At 1.6m most jumpers look pretty flat to me as most cannot “bascule” or jump UP and across-- across that size oxer and get to the other side!)
Indeed, the latest edition of the holsteiner stallions and mares are downright exquisite–if you needed to add quicker reflexes to a less modern mare as a primary goal who would you use?TIA
Since watching the documentary on the TB (Nature’s Giants program) I’ve been thinking a lot about tendons. That may be what the TB adds to the WB mix. If the TB’s tendons (as a whole) are quicker and stronger because of years of breeding for speed, might not that be what is lost without going back to them?
I’m not arguing that the Holsteiners need TB blood. They obviously have their breeding figured out. I’m just saying that there were many Thoroughbreds that have been capable at all levels and I wish the breeding of those lines could be continued. I’m sure we won’t see it since there is success elsewhere, but I still believe in their ability. I doubt one stallion clone will change much even if he is phenonenal.
PennyG
Selah that article was written aug. 3rd 2009 and the breeding season closed august 10th. That is a seven day window. And they could have simply been freezing the semen or yes I suppose sold out for a 7 day window.
Cancara, Casall, Cassini II and Larimar are not TB’s, and far from it. Ibisco XX has had some success with the remaining heavy and larger mares that still need to be lightened or quickened. My statement was a general one for the vast majority of mares in Holstein. Clearly they are still used, but by comparison…well, not so much.
Look I know that I should have put on my flame suit, but these are realities observed as a whole. TB’s do not jump the same way as WB’s. Today’s sport may require a lighter, faster type then yesterday, but it does want the WB way of going. TB’s will continue to be used to lighten them up, quicken them up, increase their sensitivity. They just don’t need it as much anymore.
Tim
the interesting discrepancy is the way in which this subject dominates holsteiner breeding dscussion on this forum, while in germany and among holsteiner breeders elsewhere, it just doesn’t. we don’t need so much tb blood. we need some.
it really is nowhere close to being as relevant as the volume of discussion on here would suggest. because, again, the motivation of the defenders is tb-oriented, not jumping oriented. and so, onto more significant considerations… like mares, stams, inspection and approval results and current sport data…
[QUOTE=selah;5881694]
Must be a lot of gun-totin’ going on in Holstein these days. According to the Verband website:
·the stallions Cancara, Casall, Cassini II, Ibisco xx and Larimar are booked out for this coverage period and cannot cover other Holstein mares.
http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=181&idart=2175[/QUOTE]
Selah , I’m not gonna do it for you but it may pay you to investigate what constitutes a “full book” and "sold out " . A sold out book for Ibisco xx is far less than a sold out book for the rest.
[QUOTE=ne1;5882028]
the interesting discrepancy is the way in which this subject dominates holsteiner breeding dscussion on this forum, while in germany and among holsteiner breeders elsewhere, it just doesn’t. we don’t need so much tb blood. we need some.
it really is nowhere close to being as relevant as the volume of discussion on here would suggest. …[/QUOTE]
This statement is 100% accurate.
Right back at ya, great post.
Tim
