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Diversity in the Holstein collection this year

Sport Horse Breeding
#81

Another difference it may be more relevant here is that we had 30,000 plus xx being born a year whereas Germany may have had 5000 (?) a year and, historicaliy, the USA did successfully use the xx in the Olympic jumping sports (as distinguished from Quarterhorses :slight_smile: ), whereas Germany did not have that “tradition” of using the xx in sport.

I wonder if the shoe had been on the other foot, we would have seen purpose bred xx in Germany (unlike our hit or miss method) or at least a sporhorse methodically bred from a xx base.

But time has moved on–the new established hybrid is better than either its xx or heavy warmblood ancestors.

#82

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5882043]
Selah , I’m not gonna do it for you but it may pay you to investigate what constitutes a “full book” and "sold out " . A sold out book for Ibisco xx is far less than a sold out book for the rest.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely…I figured it is far fewer breedings than with the rest, and also that there is also probably some criteria to be met regarding the mares put to the TB stallions. But he is apparently being used to the threshold set for him…or has been in the past.

I just have trouble with the fact that a TB stallion without good jump (even for a TB:rolleyes:) would be used at all in the Holsteiner program. I wouldn’t want to put a jumper mare to him, no matter how coarse she was. PLUS, if you think about line-breeding in future years to the blood…you’d be line-breeding to blood that didn’t have good jump (even for a TB).

And yes, Tim…I realize the quote I used from the Verband website listed the “sold out” Holsteiners along with Ibisco xx. I just didn’t want to make my own alterations to their paragraph by bolding Ibisco xx. I really don’t think your flame suit is necessary…but if it has tights, a cape, and a big H on the chest, we want pics!!!:smiley:

#83

[QUOTE=ne1;5882028]
the interesting discrepancy is the way in which this subject dominates holsteiner breeding dscussion on this forum, while in germany and among holsteiner breeders elsewhere, it just doesn’t. we don’t need so much tb blood. we need some.

it really is nowhere close to being as relevant as the volume of discussion on here would suggest. … [/QUOTE]

I think that’s because

  1. there is a large TB mare base here in the US with unmined gold among it, whether some want to believe it or not.

and

  1. because of the often inaccurate and insulting posts put up by certain Holsteiner breeders regarding TBs on this forum, as if all TBs are alike. :wink:

TBs are not part of some big coordinated sportshorse marketing machine. It’s no wonder they’ve fallen off in the showjumping rankings.

#84

Ibisco xx was new that year, I don’t think he has sold out the last two year, but I will check.

You have given me an idea for Holloween. I must now get to work on a new flame suit.

Tim

#85

If it is a COTH flame suit, it should also be horse-shit proof as it just goes with the territory. :slight_smile:

Now I shall wait and see how busy the Mods are with the Off Topic forum…

I was watching a Tb in the 1.5m class this year, nice horse. And I would never knock the talent of an individual horse. But, just on a logical level, the chances of that horse being able to be succesfully intergrated into a larger jumping breeding program/senario would probably not be as succesful as the individual. How they breed and what they cross well with is an unknow since very few are doing it. Fred is a good example of a breeding program that is working well. But the sucsess of any individual depends on the knowledge and contributions of the group. I also bet that Fred wishes she had 30 other tb breeders like her so she could maximize her efforts by having other succesfull mares/ stallions to breed back to or find that golden nick for Fred (the horse, not Gail)

I think the talented Tb’s are our there but they are lacking the condensed /purpose bred/numbers that make any breeding program succesful. I really like the Hans but they did not segregate or concentrate their efforts on jumping and have lost some of the lines that were the best in the world. Now they have a jumping program to try and condense the jumping genes. It is all about breeding jumper to jumpers. Tb’s have no larger system to do so.

Happy Canadian Thanksgiving weekend to everyone!

#86

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5882464]
You have given me an idea for Holloween. I must now get to work on a new flame suit.

Tim[/QUOTE]

We will need pictures. :slight_smile:

#87

Cool idea. But would it be a suit of flames (red with yellow highlights) or a flame proof suit (armor might do or maybe asbestos)? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

#88

This! Walking through some of the TB broodmare barns here in Lexington would turn the heads of sport horse breeders, American or European. Many of the mares could have been put into any WB breeding operation and the assumption would be WB or a very high quality F1 cross. More than one I wanted to throw in a jump chute as they looked like they could jump a house. It really made me wonder what the TB sport horse would be like today if sport horse breeders had access to mares of this quality. :yes:

#89

[QUOTE=selah;5882425]
Absolutely…I figured it is far fewer breedings than with the rest, and also that there is also probably some criteria to be met regarding the mares put to the TB stallions. But he is apparently being used to the threshold set for him…or has been in the past.

I just have trouble with the fact that a TB stallion without good jump (even for a TB:rolleyes:) would be used at all in the Holsteiner program. I wouldn’t want to put a jumper mare to him, no matter how coarse she was. PLUS, if you think about line-breeding in future years to the blood…you’d be line-breeding to blood that didn’t have good jump (even for a TB).

And yes, Tim…I realize the quote I used from the Verband website listed the “sold out” Holsteiners along with Ibisco xx. I just didn’t want to make my own alterations to their paragraph by bolding Ibisco xx. I really don’t think your flame suit is necessary…but if it has tights, a cape, and a big H on the chest, we want pics!!!:D[/QUOTE]

And this is where the concept of generational breeding appears to be lost on you. Do you think every TB stallion that they’ve ever used had incredible jumping talent ? No.

Most mares that were bred to Ibisco xx had incredible jump in them. Two examples are Casiro I & II’s mother and a Contender / Carthago mare who scored all 10’s at her test and is from a long line of international jumping production. They already have the jump in the motherline…they are looking to Ibisco xx for something else.

I know why he was selected. He brings alot of good things to the table. Pedigree , type , movement…all positives.

You should telephone Dr. Nissen and ask him why he would select a stallion like Ibisco xx instead of continuing to utter your speculation.

#90

The dam definitely comes from TB lines that have exhibited the jump in the past. Even Sadlers Wells’s get have produced jumps racers, albeit mostly hurdlers. It’s really a decent sport horse pedigree if you can buy into Sadler’s Wells.

#91

I have to be honest I am dumbfounded as well at how this keeps wandering.

We can all walk through a TB mare barn and think wow what a super jumper broodmare she would make. Walk through a barn with NH TB broodmares and have a look. They’re unreal. But the funny thing is the owner of those mares and probably most involved in the business would think you mad in the head for wanting to breed those good mares to a jumper stallion. At the moment in Ireland there are actually a few decent mares that have been bred for sporthorses but mostly for eventing.

Talking about how the jumpers would have been just as good had they started with a quality TB mare base. I have argued the same point and it is probably true. But they didn’t.

In a country that did have access to decent TB’s, the US, this didn’t happen. And I agree people have always been too complacent with regards to bloodlines don’t matter so much was lost. If the TB sporthorse was far superior people wouldn’t buy warmbloods. They just wouldn’t. And (this will rumble feathers), say the TB sporthorse was superior, those Euros would have taken it to another level and have some of the best TB producing families in the world. Because they know how to breed for what’s needed. Even today I lose count of how many times people still think papers just aren’t important.

Lastly instead of talking about how great TB’s are and can do anything than proove it. I love love my TB’s and would rather my TB come from the bottom. That’s me. I think the mare CAN bring more to the table in the qualities I love about the TB. What you can’t do is talk about it and expect everyone else to put their money where your mouth is. You need to give them the reason why. I have no doubt that certain lines in America starting from a TB mare base could have been bred and developed mixed with the best of the warmblood stallions to achieve super competitive today type horses. But you have to ask yourself why it didn’t happen. And then you have to look at the registries themselves and see exactly how they did it. Not just the mare base. The combination of everything. That’s what I look at. We keep talking about having access to the top TB mares would have made a difference and yet they didn’t use the cream of the crop TB stallions back in the day. They used stallions TB breeders had no interest in using to breed full TB’s for racing. Racing and breeding for Dressage and Show Jumping are worlds apart. Why I have to mention that is beyond me.

Like I said before the TB is unique in that it can do other things very well that it was not purposely bred for. No Holsteiner could make a dent in a jumping race and you won’t find Holsteiner people bitching about that. The same as you don’t see Coolmore and Darley with a sporthorse division nor would they give a toss. The biggest TB connection I can find in SJ over here is the recent 7yo champion at Lanaken. He was born and raised at the Irish National Stud. Wonder who is pasture mares were.

Terri

#92

:yes:

And I am amongst the dreamers, I have a very good mare and hope to produce very good sport horses (top? :eek:) from her, but I know I am going against the tide a bit. But I really believe in my mare and her fillies are proving that I am not mistaken so far.

She has foals still out racing at 6 years of age too.

I’ll even start riding her, because I have so much riding on her and her genetics, that I’d better love riding her. :wink:

#93

It’s ok to be a dreamer as it’s your passion.

As long as you realize the reality of the fact that no one really looks to these horses for the “top” and you don’t have a culture of TB breeders for sport surrounding you to help with the generations.

I admire and respect the lone wolf approach from breeders like Terri and youself. Breed em , raise em , train em and bring em to the show ring and we’ll see where they stack up at the end of the day.

#94

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5882838]
And this is where the concept of generational breeding appears to be lost on you. Do you think every TB stallion that they’ve ever used had incredible jumping talent ? No. [/QUOTE]

Yes, I must say…this concept is very lost on me. I think that if one was to post that they were going to breed their big, excellent jumper mare to an OTTB with an ok-for-sport pedigree, and no particular talent for jump, and then require at least another generation to overcome that breeding, they would be said to be crazy.

#95

[QUOTE=selah;5884115]
Yes, I must say…this concept is very lost on me. I think that if one was to post that they were going to breed their big, excellent jumper mare to an OTTB with an ok-for-sport pedigree, and no particular talent for jump, and then require at least another generation to overcome that breeding, they would be said to be crazy.[/QUOTE]

You don’t understand breeding culture Selah. You can’t see 20 years down the road.

No one ever said Ibisco didn’t have any talent. I said I wasn’t that impressed with his jumping as he was not so scopey.

It most always takes at least another generation to overcome the insertion of a TB stallion. You typically lose some movement and jump but gain in the other desired areas. You are forgetting that the two best half breds Holstein ever created were Landgraf & Lord. Only TWO ! The rest had to come from the next generations.

I have no doubt we will see top horses coming in the future with Ibisco xx in the motherline.

Let the experts breed the horses Selah…these experts ,thankfully , don’t share your short sighted sentiment.

#96

[QUOTE=baywithchrome2;5882630]
This! Walking through some of the TB broodmare barns here in Lexington would turn the heads of sport horse breeders, American or European. Many of the mares could have been put into any WB breeding operation and the assumption would be WB or a very high quality F1 cross. More than one I wanted to throw in a jump chute as they looked like they could jump a house. It really made me wonder what the TB sport horse would be like today if sport horse breeders had access to mares of this quality. :yes:[/QUOTE]

Yes, so many reasons why TBs aren’t at the top in showjumping anymore, lack of promotion and coordination in sportshorse breeding and with the racing world here being chief among them.

#97

[QUOTE=selah;5884115]
Yes, I must say…this concept is very lost on me. I think that if one was to post that they were going to breed their big, excellent jumper mare to an OTTB with an ok-for-sport pedigree, and no particular talent for jump, and then require at least another generation to overcome that breeding, they would be said to be crazy.[/QUOTE]

They would be crazy. At the least both mare and stallion need to be able to jump, and it helps for the TB to have a pedigree stacked full of jumping genes too. (Such TBs are not all dead or over 20 years old either.)

#98

No but breeding to them or the ones they have chosen produce the same end result. So they chose the ones that give them what they do need. Trust me, the TB’s that are chosen, are chosen. They don’t just willy nilly pick any old TB like many breeders here do when they grab any old OTTB. They may not be the scopiest TB’s in this world, but they have other good qualities. They don’t breed to them for scope any more then they breed to Cassini I for refinement. You breed to these stallions for specific traits that are needed in the mares. You let the strengths of your mares compensate for the stallions short comings. This is what is done in Holstein, with all stallions not just TBs. They don’t breed to Lavall I for scope, but man does he make nice mares.

Tim

#99

I completely respect what the Holsteiner breeders do, particularly the leadership they have from their German counterparts and their vision for the future as they match mares and stallions. However, the statements such as Tim makes are the ones that show disrespect and disdain for other breeders who are also dedicated, well informed and have a depth of knowledge of their own stock and matches. I have bred Thoroughbreds and a few warmbloods for a lot of years. I have dedicated an inordinate amount of time learning from others, studying breeders and their methods and all the other components that go into breeding quality horses for my own program. I know my horses and don’t need much input regarding my decisions from anyone else because I have confidence in my own decisons and ability to make them. I completely resent the suggestion that no one but you are truly informed or have foresight or knowledge. That is simply not true and is insulting. I give respect and expect the same. My goals may not reflect yours, but I can assure you my decisions are not rash or based on the cheapest or most available OTTB! Neither are most of these breeders. So, just a gentle, although aggravated reminder of this. You may not be directing your comment to me or most of us and I understand your frustration of explaining ad nauseum how your concepts work (and they DO work!), and why using you will not use TB’s very much to accomplish what you want - I GET IT and it’s fine with me! But don’t infer (or say!) anyone who pursues breeding a different way from your strategies are breeding willy nilly without purpose,plan or the long view and not achieving positive results based on their principals and knowledge. Thank you!
PennyG

#100

Interestingly, of the four TB Verband stallions listed on the Verband website, three have a Northern Dancer sireline, all through Saddlers Wells. The fourth has a Native Dancer sireline.
One of the SF stallions (Fidelio du Donjon) has Northern Dancer in his damline.
Add to that the two Ibisco sons referred to in the OP, two more opportunities to incorporate the Northern Dancer sireline.

Just wondering if any TB folks see anything problematic in this formula?

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