Diversity in the Holstein collection this year

[Equilibrium]

EM, I took a look at your mare and she’s lovely! What a tank! Also really love her sire. I used to get on a horse eons ago out of Polite Lady. His name was Fort Yukon. Don’t think he did anything but I adored him. Also love how you have included the numbers of the female families in the pedigree. Class.

Bayhawk, thank you so much. Thank you for your help all along. What really gets to me is people have no idea how helpful people like Reece, Tom, and Nick can be. I keep hearing over and over how these people hate anything TB and it’s not that way at all.

Like EM I’m dreamer. These threads get so far into coulda, woulda, shoulda and what’s the point. Either do it and prove it or really just shush up. My take on all this has changed immensely over the years because at some point I shut my big yappy mouth and decided to let the horses do the talking instead. I also tried to learn as much as I can from people who know what they’re on about. That process will always continue for me. I always remember vividly when Abba first started jumping at home. She looked like a National Hunt warmblood. And I thought OMG, they were right, this is a disaster. I’m pretty sure I typed off an email to one COTHer that only offered me encouragement.

If you want people to take you serious, then just do it.

Terri

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5884580]
No but breeding to them or the ones they have chosen produce the same end result. So they chose the ones that give them what they do need. Trust me, the TB’s that are chosen, are chosen. They don’t just willy nilly pick any old TB like many breeders here do when they grab any old OTTB. They may not be the scopiest TB’s in this world, but they have other good qualities. They don’t breed to them for scope any more then they breed to Cassini I for refinement. You breed to these stallions for specific traits that are needed in the mares. You let the strengths of your mares compensate for the stallions short comings. This is what is done in Holstein, with all stallions not just TBs. They don’t breed to Lavall I for scope, but man does he make nice mares.

Tim[/QUOTE]

Surely they have talent to bring to the jumping table however; perhaps not the ability to do a 1.6m course but at least a 1.4 or 1.45 m course, with the stride to get over the widest obstacles (a Tb’s forte as omare said), or particularly good form or quick front end, or just general cattiness, endurance and athleticism. I’d be surprised if those stallions did not have at least that much jumping ability. If not then no wonder you’d be looking at 2 or more generations down the road unless you got lucky.

[Equilibrium]

Have to agree with Penny as well. Why as soon as your using a TB it’s assumed it’s a cheap piece of crap is really annoying. But look it that’s not everybody so I don’t pay attention to those people. That’s very small minded.

As far as the ND influence, in what way is it problematic? The SW line is athletic and versatile. Local Suitor seems to have something to offer as well or there wouldn’t be 2 TB’s with the same damsire.

Terri

[baywithchrome2]

@Equilibrium;5883791

We can all walk through a TB mare barn and think wow what a super jumper broodmare she would make. Walk through a barn with NH TB broodmares and have a look. They’re unreal. But the funny thing is the owner of those mares and probably most involved in the business would think you mad in the head for wanting to breed those good mares to a jumper stallion.

Well said :lol: And you’re quite right about the look you will get if you mention said mare + a jump chute

I did not intend my comment to make the conversation wander, but direct it to the point that the use of TBs in sporthorse breeding needs to be exercised with great care as to the quality of the individual and the pedigree behind it. In general, we (sporthorse breeders) do not have access to the best of the TB breeding stock, but given the vast size of the TB breeding industry, there are exceptions that fall through the cracks and those need to be capitalized on. Yes, there are far too many TB mares in this country that should not be bred for sport. And I’ll be the first to say that I believe this is one of the greatest weaknesses in American breeding that the European-based WB registries allow to continue. But, the over-generalized, over-sterotyped, broad stroke comments of the TB on this board get tiresome and can be misleading, imho. Top level competitors and European breeders ride/use TBs or highly influenced TBs. And the application of that TB blood is varied. Just a few examples:

1. Plot Blue is from TB family 4-o, with his 3rd dam being a full TB. She produced an international jumper and her direct branch has produced several stallions and international jumpers.

2. Hanoverian stallion, Salieri, who put two brothers in the 2004 Olympics - one in dressage and one in showjumping - is from TB family 20.

3. Olympic competitor, Jaguar Mail, has two generations of full TB blood sitting on top of his WB motherline.

4. Leslie Howard’s recently retired GP mare, Jean Gloves Varnel. Another case of a top level competitor who has two generations of TB on top of WB blood.

5. Herald III, a 1/2-bred approved Holsteiner stallion competing at GP, ranked 60th in the world in 2010.

6. Here at home, Charlie Jayne has successfully taken full TB Thomas Edison from the Young Jumper ranks all the way to GP. And currently, is taking Ronald Reagan on the same path.

7. And an American-bred that is doing quite well competing and winning in the GP ring here with his German rider is River of Dreams, Riverman-Merano-xx mare, family 4-r. The xx 3rd dam is full sister to Leslie Howard’s International GP mount Chase the Clouds who was ranked in the top 10 jumpers in the world.

These are just off the top of my head but here you have TB mare lines, 1/2 breds, 3/4 breds and even 100% TBs competing at the upper levels of the sport. There are so many more examples that we could add to this list (and we won’t even mention the apathy of USEF that immediately diminishes the true numbers). So, is it really dreaming when you use TB blood? I don’t think so. Just like when you breed two Warmbloods, I believe its knowledgable, “eyes wide open,” highly critical, and long-term committed use of the individual before you and the pedigree behind them that can get you where you want to be. And as Reece said, willingness to lose a little to move forward in the next generation has to be acceptable. Most will not get a Herald III on their first cross of their WB mare to a TB. And most will not create a Plot Blue in 3 generations. Then again, even when mating full WBs with lauded pedigrees and motherlines, most will not get a Herald III or a Plot Blue.

And Equilibrium, to your “just do it” comment… I am and I will :yes: I have WB mares, but I also have three full TB mares that I covet.

[columbus]

With TBs there is no contemperary selection happening in the US. The only place TBs can be fairly evaluated in large enough numbers in sport is in Ireland and Great Britain and this is primarily in the sport of eventing. Ireland is showing some signs of getting their marketing into the 20th century and the Goresbridge Select Eventing horse sale is incredible for Ireland and a great step forward, they can see the 21st Century maybe. http://www.irishhorse.com/EventHorseSale.html

It is historical as well that Ireland discovered what TBs were successful in sport. Precipitation for example. They may get back to that in the future as well. The huge hole that Ireland has to dig itself out of is undocumented mare lines. They have a tradition it seems of un-named mares and un-documented dams. This came about from Europeans purchasing horses at sales and “losing” the background of the dams and farmer breeders so people couldn’t bypass the dealers and buy directly. The success of the Irish horses was via the dealer not the breeder. It does in no way mean their dam base is deficient in producing quality but it does mean there is much less to learn from production records. It is still the most likely place for new TB sport lines to emerge. With the absence of documentation to back up performance the major sport registries are unlikely to integrate the general Irish gene pool.

I just saw our local annual Grand Prix, hardly the big time here but it does show trends. We were the last place to see wild TBs racing around jumps too big with no flatwork basis to help balance them. I felt at least 25% of the horses had no business being there. But over the last 10 years the percentage of warmbloods has increased til now perhaps 4 TBs out of 27 entries and they were solid candidates. The majority were warmblood with type lighter than in the past and many who were as light and quick as TBs…perhaps like an old fashioned TB with more bone and a uphill frame. The warmbloods in that class did not NEED TB. As a type they are past needing TB. They were refined, quick footed, athletic, scopey, maybe less powerful than the warmblood of 10 or more years ago. Maybe a quarter were pretty hot but not frantic like the TBs of the past. Times have changed and passed the TB by. PatO

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5884783]
EM, I took a look at your mare and she’s lovely! What a tank! Also really love her sire. I used to get on a horse eons ago out of Polite Lady. His name was Fort Yukon. Don’t think he did anything but I adored him. Also love how you have included the numbers of the female families in the pedigree. Class.

Bayhawk, thank you so much. Thank you for your help all along. What really gets to me is people have no idea how helpful people like Reece, Tom, and Nick can be. I keep hearing over and over how these people hate anything TB and it’s not that way at all.

Like EM I’m dreamer. These threads get so far into coulda, woulda, shoulda and what’s the point. Either do it and prove it or really just shush up. My take on all this has changed immensely over the years because at some point I shut my big yappy mouth and decided to let the horses do the talking instead. I also tried to learn as much as I can from people who know what they’re on about. That process will always continue for me. I always remember vividly when Abba first started jumping at home. She looked like a National Hunt warmblood. And I thought OMG, they were right, this is a disaster. I’m pretty sure I typed off an email to one COTHer that only offered me encouragement.

If you want people to take you serious, then just do it.

Terri[/QUOTE]

You’re welcome Terri ! I hope everyone succeeds with whatever they breed with. A good horse is a good horse is a good horse !

The problem here in this country and especially here on his board is no breeding culture. You have defenders of great horses mired deep in the past. You have snickering , bickering and downright jealousy. You have people making suggestions for mares that have absolutely no IDEA what they are even talking about , never even seen the stallions they suggest , nor any of the offspring but will swear up and down they know what they are talking about.

There is a person right now making stallion suggestions for an international jumping mare on another thread that has never seen the mare and the stallion she suggests must be the right suggestion because he made two premium foals for HER ! They will argue with you the most elementary knowledge , that is known by all regarding a particular stallions production. I wonder what they will do when decisions really get technical ? Unbelievable these people !

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5885286]
You’re welcome Terri ! I hope everyone succeeds with whatever they breed with. A good horse is a good horse is a good horse !

The problem here in this country and especially here on his board is no breeding culture. You have defenders of great horses mired deep in the past. You have snickering , bickering and downright jealousy. You have people making suggestions for mares that have absolutely no IDEA what they are even talking about , never even seen the stallions they suggest , nor any of the offspring but will swear up and down they know what they are talking about.

There is a person right now making stallion suggestions for an international jumping mare on another thread that has never seen the mare and the stallion she suggests must be the right suggestion because he made two premium foals for HER ! They will argue with you the most elementary knowledge , that is known by all regarding a particular stallions production. I wonder what they will do when decisions really get technical ? Unbelievable these people ![/QUOTE]

I think what I enjoy most about your posts is that you don’t let utterly inane mediocrity slide. You are more than willing to back people up and hold them accountable for the idiotic comments they make. Somewhere along the line it was decided that everyone had a right to express their opinion. We now have a society full of people who firmly believe that their opinions are of value and/or worth expressing, regardless of actual knowledge, wisdom or merit.

You (and Rick and Tom) are a pleasure to read, as much for the knowledge you impart as for the baloney that is posted which you dissect and expose as worthless.

Thank you for your contributions.

[Equilibrium]

Bayhawk,

I’ve read that thread. I laugh because on the way home from A show in Northern Ireland I declared Abba an International SJ. It went with a whole big thing and it was funny at the time.

I love my TB’s because I spent most of my life immersed in the breed for racing. Getting on generations of the same mare family as well as plenty of the same stallion stock led me to my thoughts regarding TB mares. Yup the stallion can lay claim but those mare lines were just so key in throwing certain traits along the way. Just little stupid things that I won’t go into. But how it all matches up with jumping is unknown for me. And may be a disaster. Time will tell.

Baywithchrome,

I know you meant nothing snarky about it. Your obviously involved with TB’s in the TB world too. So I really get annoyed with the adage, if we could get top mares from the breeding industry they will surely do the job as good as any Holsteiner mare. If it were only that simple. I’m sorry the old lines got washed away because people didn’t care enough to register and to try and mix those lines with some of the top warmbloods of generations. It’s not going to change. No point in trying to get it to change just try and do the best with what we have. I can’t say I’d want it to change either.

I really wish we just all moved forward and stop snarking about irrelevant crap. And these people that everyone thinks hate TB’s have been my biggest supporters while some of those who think TB’s are the bees knees for sporthorses have been my biggest detractors. Go figure. Only on COTH I suppose!

Terri

[sixpoundfarm]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5885286]

The problem here in this country and especially here on his board is no breeding culture. You have defenders of great horses mired deep in the past. You have snickering , bickering and downright jealousy. You have people making suggestions for mares that have absolutely no IDEA what they are even talking about , never even seen the stallions they suggest , nor any of the offspring but will swear up and down they know what they are talking about.

There is a person right now making stallion suggestions for an international jumping mare on another thread that has never seen the mare and the stallion she suggests must be the right suggestion because he made two premium foals for HER ! They will argue with you the most elementary knowledge , that is known by all regarding a particular stallions production. I wonder what they will do when decisions really get technical ? Unbelievable these people ![/QUOTE]

Wow, you really know how to make things up to suit your arguments.
The poster you are talking about has stated their direct experience breeding to stallions that OTHER PEOPLE have mentioned. It sure is special that you seem to know everything, and like to share your opinions with anyone that will listen, but the fact that other people have used the stallions and gotten different results than what you are demanding they produce is allowed to be discussed.
There are no guarantees in breeding, hate to break it to you. Sure you can try and stack the deck in the manner you are hoping for, but sometimes nature has its own plans.

I am sure you’ll have some snarky response to me, and the fact that I also posted against what you say is typical of one of the stallions. Whatever.
Maybe my foal is a fluke, who knows… But, I’d take 100 just like him. Fluke, freak or whatever.

[EquusMagnificus]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5884783]
EM, I took a look at your mare and she’s lovely! What a tank! Also really love her sire. I used to get on a horse eons ago out of Polite Lady. His name was Fort Yukon. Don’t think he did anything but I adored him. Also love how you have included the numbers of the female families in the pedigree. Class. [/QUOTE]

blush Thanks Terri!! She’s been a fantastic mare for me. She’s the one who really taught me, in the flesh, about the importance of the mare.

Oh and Bayhawk, she’s not a jumper mare. I am not even trying to rival the Holsteiner powerhouse with this one…

[baywithchrome2]

@Equilibrium;5886195

Bayhawk,

I really wish we just all moved forward and stop snarking about irrelevant crap.

Terri

Here, here! :winkgrin:

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=sixpoundfarm;5886240]
Wow, you really know how to make things up to suit your arguments.
The poster you are talking about has stated their direct experience breeding to stallions that OTHER PEOPLE have mentioned. It sure is special that you seem to know everything, and like to share your opinions with anyone that will listen, but the fact that other people have used the stallions and gotten different results than what you are demanding they produce is allowed to be discussed.
There are no guarantees in breeding, hate to break it to you. Sure you can try and stack the deck in the manner you are hoping for, but sometimes nature has its own plans.

I am sure you’ll have some snarky response to me, and the fact that I also posted against what you say is typical of one of the stallions. Whatever.
Maybe my foal is a fluke, who knows… But, I’d take 100 just like him. Fluke, freak or whatever.[/QUOTE]

And here we go , right on cue…

I relayed to you that you had an exception with your Quinar baby being as long or longer than the mother or whatever you said.

Listen closely Tracy…THIS IS NOT WHAT HE NORMALLY DOES. This is known the world over by anyone who knows anything about Quidam . Quinar etc.

Quinar was suggested to a mare owner who didn’t want to shorten the frame or back of her mare. This suggestion was wrong.

Sure , she may breed her mare to Quinar and get a carbon copy of the mother. however , not likely.

Tracy , it has nothing to do with you posting “against what I say” . I told you the truth about the way Quinar produces. I have owned several , bought several for clients and have seen hundreds more. Until you can say that…you really can’t speak against the statement of how Quinar produces.

These are not things I make up nor does anyone else. These are the facts.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Cartier;5885471]
I think what I enjoy most about your posts is that you don’t let utterly inane mediocrity slide. You are more than willing to back people up and hold them accountable for the idiotic comments they make. Somewhere along the line it was decided that everyone had a right to express their opinion. We now have a society full of people who firmly believe that their opinions are of value and/or worth expressing, regardless of actual knowledge, wisdom or merit.

You (and Rick and Tom) are a pleasure to read, as much for the knowledge you impart as for the baloney that is posted which you dissect and expose as worthless.

Thank you for your contributions.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Cartier ! Congrats to you as well on your recent success I just read about.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions , but unfortunately , they are just flat out the wrong ones sometimes.

One of the reasons ? They see one or two horses by a particular stallion and then suddenly and magically they know it all ! Oh well…How’s things down in the sandhills ?

[vineyridge]

Y’all might find this interesting. It’s an article on the Aga Khan’s breeding philosophy, and his stud has been consistently successful in TB race breeding for almost 100 years, 50 with the current owner.
http://www.breedingracing.com/pdfs/96/Editorial/agakhan.pdf

[TKR]

I really enjoy these threads and have learned alot from other dedicated breeders, particularly and understanding of their philosophies and methods and how/why they work. I admire the strategy of the Holsteiner breeders and their knowledge and dedication in following this course. They seem to have more of a set protocol than the other wb registries. I do hate it that many times it does disintegrate as emotion takes over or someone makes a comment that is flippant or denigrating to a breeder or their breed of choice. I think it is important to keep in mind that all breeders have their own purposes and preferences and it may not fit yours but it doesn’t make it wrong or ill thought out. I don’t think the Thoroughbreds are out of the picture, they just may not fit YOUR program but many of us love them and find what they have to offer exactly what we want. They are still successful in all the disciplines and will continue to be. Thanks for all the information, I love to learn!
PennyG

[grayarabpony]

Only on COTH can you see someone being thanked for repeatedly acting like an a$$. It’s worth a snicker anyway.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5886531]
Thank you Cartier ! Congrats to you as well on your recent success I just read about.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions , but unfortunately , they are just flat out the wrong ones sometimes.

One of the reasons ? They see one or two horses by a particular stallion and then suddenly and magically they know it all ! Oh well…How’s things down in the sandhills ?[/QUOTE]

Thanks Reece,
It’s gray here today, and I hate gray… I love the sunshine, even if it means excessive heat. As for the horses, we’ve had some measure of success, but as time goes on it feels like we know less and less; maybe we should leave breeding to you and your colleagues. In the past decade we’ve watched the results of what we’ve bred and the results of others, including many of the breeders on this forum. At times we are in awe, and at times we have to stifle a laugh. We’re still kicking around breeding two of the mares next spring. Unlike many in this economy we have more resources now than we did years ago, but given all that we American breeders have to deal with to achieve “success”, I find that I am a bit hesitant to breed again. There are things about Commander I love. I’d like to think we can do even better with his half-sister True Ruler bred to maybe Chacco Blue, but at the moment I am not sure. In truth, “it takes a village” for the average breeder to get a horse to 1.55m. I am not sure if I’m up for the effort.

[sixpoundfarm]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5887092]
Only on COTH can you see someone being thanked for repeatedly acting like an a$$. It’s worth a snicker anyway.[/QUOTE]

Right? :lol:

Thanks for setting me straight Reece. :rolleyes:
Shame on me for taking you off ignore.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=sixpoundfarm;5887172]
Right? :lol:

Thanks for setting me straight Reece. :rolleyes:
Shame on me for taking you off ignore.[/QUOTE]

Always articulate and intelligent posts from you and GrayArabPony. The knowledge you both offer up is simply astonishing .

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Cartier;5887167]
Thanks Reece,
It’s gray here today, and I hate gray… I love the sunshine, even if it means excessive heat. As for the horses, we’ve had some measure of success, but as time goes on it feels like we know less and less; maybe we should leave breeding to you and your colleagues. In the past decade we’ve watched the results of what we’ve bred and the results of others, including many of the breeders on this forum. At times we are in awe, and at times we have to stifle a laugh. We’re still kicking around breeding two of the mares next spring. Unlike many in this economy we have more resources now than we did years ago, but given all that we American breeders have to deal with to achieve “success”, I find that I am a bit hesitant to breed again. There are things about Commander I love. I’d like to think we can do even better with his half-sister True Ruler bred to maybe Chacco Blue, but at the moment I am not sure. In truth, “it takes a village” for the average breeder to get a horse to 1.55m. I am not sure if I’m up for the effort. :([/QUOTE]

Nope…you’ve done quite well breeding for yourself. That is a major accomplishment that you should be proud of. It does take a village though…no matter how good a horse you breed , it’s got to get in the right hands.