Diversity in the Holstein collection this year

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5890535]
No kidding, and besides Tim, you are misrepresenting what I said. I guess you missed the part where I said BOTH breeding and riding stock will be produced by a good breeding program. The whole end point of any breeding program is to produce horses that can be ridden or driven.

Breeding programs are going to produce a lot of male horses, most of which are going to be be gelded and better become damn good riding horses. I doubt that everything that bayhawk is producing is too good to ride, including the geldings. Besides which, there’s nothing wrong with riding a good mare in order for her to prove herself either. Lots of breeders do ET.[/QUOTE]

You wouldn’t know a good riding horse if it kicked you in the mouth. You have ZERO experience in the breeding shed or show ring. ZERO ! please prove to the world I’m wrong.

In addition, there are a folks here who have no idea how much it costs to produce an upper level show jumper. At times, breeders have to make a choice about where to spend their money. My sister and I have a jumper (a very nice one :-)) - the bill at the end of the show, even if he wins, between fees from the shows, day care and the rides is <ahem> very large. I am sure that Reece will concur. It is not for the faint of heart.

Reece breeds along the traditional ways of the farmers in Holstein. Good mares from productive bloodlines go to the breeding shed and not on to sporthorse careers. It’s the way they do it and it works. It’s different than the focus here in North America, but there is no reason to denigrate the man’s breeding program because he isn’t at the top of the USEF’s flawed lists.

I’ve looked at his videos and his horses are quality individuals. The camera does not lie.

Sue, donning flame suit in anticipation of GAP’s next insult thrown my way

[QUOTE=SueL;5890758]
In addition, there are a folks here who have no idea how much it costs to produce an upper level show jumper. At times, breeders have to make a choice about where to spend their money. My sister and I have a jumper (a very nice one :-)) - the bill at the end of the show, even if he wins, between fees from the shows, day care and the rides is <ahem> very large. I am sure that Reece will concur. It is not for the faint of heart.

Reece breeds along the traditional ways of the farmers in Holstein. Good mares from productive bloodlines go to the breeding shed and not on to sporthorse careers. It’s the way they do it and it works. It’s different than the focus here in North America, but there is no reason to denigrate the man’s breeding program because he isn’t at the top of the USEF’s flawed lists.

I’ve looked at his videos and his horses are quality individuals. The camera does not lie.

Sue, donning flame suit in anticipation of GAP’s next insult thrown my way[/QUOTE]

Exactly SueL ! Thank you !

80 % of the top producing mares in Holstein have never seen the show ring

There’s no reason for bayhawk to denigrate other people’s breeding programs and choices either, and yet he does it right and left. And, when I point out a fact it’s called denigration, but when Reece points out “facts”, (which are often opinions, not facts) it’s called not blowing smoke. Funny! :lol:

Also, he has a unique program in only producing mares then I guess too huh. And I suppose to that when looking for a good breeding program we should look to the bottom of the competition listings because their horses are all too good to ride. :slight_smile: Those competition listings, they’re all so flawed! Are the Europeans ones too? I hope not because I suppose Reece is breeding Holsteiners because they do well in jumping competitions. He certainly brings that up a lot.

Enough about bayhawk already… time to move on…

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5890867]
Exactly SueL ! Thank you !

80 % of the top producing mares in Holstein have never seen the show ring[/QUOTE]

But at some point, their offspring need to or they are not really top producing mares. I completely agree with keeping the best for breeding, but somewhere along the line, you have to validate your breeding direction with performance in the ring.

I am sure there are branches of some very highly regarded stamms that are no longer considered top producers due to the lack of performance in recent generations.

ROTFLMAO

GAP, pot meet kettle. What a load of crap! You just described what you do to a tee. Priceless!

Sorry to good to pass up.

Terri

This.

In TB Racing Land, I’ve heard it described as dead branches of the family tree. Only until the branch is performance tested, no one knows it’s dead (slow).

The Aga Khan has the money and long view to keep some of his “haven’t done anything recently” mare families around for their pedigrees because it’s also well known that dormant lines can reactivate with a fortuitous cross–but that’s in a closed book. Most breeders simply don’t have that very long view or the money to support mares who don’t produce performers.

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;5890909]
But at some point, their offspring need to or they are not really top producing mares. I completely agree with keeping the best for breeding, but somewhere along the line, you have to validate your breeding direction with performance in the ring.

I am sure there are branches of some very highly regarded stamms that are no longer considered top producers due to the lack of performance in recent generations.[/QUOTE]

Back, perhaps, a bit to the issue of diversity - w/other wb outcross or w/tb v. continuing on the c v. c’d or other to date successful crosses and line breeding

I’m going to post links to two articles, not necessarily super recent, but the same SF breeder/author. Probably these are “old news” articles to some of you, but I have never really followed the SF very closely, except for the linebreeding of tbs - I admit it, the names daunt me (like a lot of the older Dutch for that matter) and I’ve never taken the time to get as familiar as I should. I think they are interesting in how they tie to this issue.

While one of the articles (I think the oldest, but I’m not sure of a specific date) makes some of the points about not just opening up the SF book some, but also continuing to incorporate lots of blood,

http://chasethedreamperformancehorses.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/the-cross-breeding-thoroughbred-by-bernard-le-courtois/
and quoting a French team member as saying, in connection with a desire for introduction of more tb (and I think this was maybe the 1990s?)“when you are riding in the international circuit, you need horses that can gallop to win.”

This is why I think you need to keep the courses in mind with the breeding goal. Some observations are that you may not need as much of a galloping horse now as once. For my part - I think on the truly international levels you do - although a lot of more local GPs may not have that need. But that’s a fwiw.

He has another article I found after I read the first (again from the 1990s I’m pretty sure) where he makes another observation on “diversity” that seems to be, despite the passage of time, something on the Hol selection committee’s mind (ymmv)

http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cgi-bin/csArticles/articles/000002/000278.htm

He looks at the heavily xx infused, heavily line bred, registry other than his own and observes, “Today in order to produce the best horses in the world , one simply needs to associate SF and Holst , both impregnated with the XX blood. The Dutch have clearly understood this , and have thus in just thirty years become a great breeding country.”

If you look at the top Hol and SF jumper stallions, they tend to have the same heavy concentrations of linebred tb, with 4th generations that typically have an xx or ox cross on every pedigree tier. You can see the tick tock ticking behind picking sons of D-S.

With top SF and HOl having a similar profile of heavy infusions of xx and ox - with some trotter - at the 4th generation level, with almost every cross having xx or ox and with a fair amount of linebreeding to boot, more SF introduction might be a way to keep pulling in some blood, in a further back, but still concentrated by line breeding, and proven in performance, way.

But I still think in the long haul, top riders will not be as happy when the blood fades and I still think it is going to fade. Part of the American problem, (which I know isn’t the topic here so I’ll cut this fast) is, imo, a lost touch for riding blood. all fwiw - maybe not as interesting as watching the ricochets from the potshots.

Yes, Viney but the AK “culls” every year too. He has the same families but he does sell lesser mares. Lots for sale at Goffs coming up in November and again in February. I know he can’t keep them all but even he can’t keep them all waiting for good things to happen.

Terri

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;5890909]
But at some point, their offspring need to or they are not really top producing mares. I completely agree with keeping the best for breeding, but somewhere along the line, you have to validate your breeding direction with performance in the ring.

I am sure there are branches of some very highly regarded stamms that are no longer considered top producers due to the lack of performance in recent generations.[/QUOTE]

You are exactly right but first you must be able to determine which ones are best to keep for breeding. Then you raise them, breed them and determine if you like the foal. Then you have to ride the 1st foal at the appropriate age…I know , its a risky , time consuming endeavor when you decide to keep a filly for breeding. This is why it’s so important to know the families they are from.

The first daughter from my mare by Cassini II is now coming up in competitions. Even though she was a site champion , premium mare for the AHHA , I chose not to keep her for breeding in favor of sport so I could determine later what I actually bred.

I feel sure the Holsteiner big guys have it all covered and a long range breeding plan … BUT - I do think the “blood” aka TB, brings more to the mix than just a refined type and movement. They bring a certain electricity and energy, perhaps heart that keeps things from getting too dull. Even if the refined Holsteiners meet the criteria in all directions, will they perhaps get a bit dull if the “blood” is not brought forward? Just wondering…
PennyG

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5890944]
This.

In TB Racing Land, I’ve heard it described as dead branches of the family tree. Only until the branch is performance tested, no one knows it’s dead (slow).

The Aga Khan has the money and long view to keep some of his “haven’t done anything recently” mare families around for their pedigrees because it’s also well known that dormant lines can reactivate with a fortuitous cross–but that’s in a closed book. Most breeders simply don’t have that very long view or the money to support mares who don’t produce performers.[/QUOTE]

You both missed the key words…80% of the “TOP PRODUCING” mares in Holstein have never seen the show ring. I relayed to you that they were already “top producers” and you immediately chose to go off on dead branches of the tree. Comohn folks…

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5890897]
There’s no reason for bayhawk to denigrate other people’s breeding programs and choices either, and yet he does it right and left. And, when I point out a fact it’s called denigration, but when Reece points out “facts”, (which are often opinions, not facts) it’s called not blowing smoke. Funny! :lol:

Also, he has a unique program in only producing mares then I guess too huh. And I suppose to that when looking for a good breeding program we should look to the bottom of the competition listings because their horses are all too good to ride. :slight_smile: Those competition listings, they’re all so flawed! Are the Europeans ones too? I hope not because I suppose Reece is breeding Holsteiners because they do well in jumping competitions. He certainly brings that up a lot.

Enough about bayhawk already… time to move on…[/QUOTE]

Show me where I denigrated someones breeding program. Show me where I denigrated someone’s choice.

I’m still waiting for you to prove me wrong by providing 1 shred of evidence that you have any equine experience whatsoever. Waiting…

that’s what makes the AK Stud great breeders. They seem to cull ruthlessly, they still have an old fashioned broodmare herd and the stallions to compliment it, and they have the money and time to keep some great mare families going, even if the family is currently non-productive.

Are you anticipating the Zarakava/Sea The Stars cross for racing? It’s definitely “breed the best to the best”. But it’s also the classic NA Mr. P/ND x with doubles of each.

It would almost be like breeding Sapphire to Cumano.

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5890970]
Yes, Viney but the AK “culls” every year too. He has the same families but he does sell lesser mares. Lots for sale at Goffs coming up in November and again in February. I know he can’t keep them all but even he can’t keep them all waiting for good things to happen.

Terri[/QUOTE]

Thanks mbp for those links. Very interesting.

Well look at it this way, in flat racing you know a hell of a lot quicker what you have both in terms of an athlete and a producer.

And yes I do know all top fillies and mares from the top registries are not just immediately shoved into the breeding shed. I actually get why they do it in the first place.

I’m looking forward to seeing STS foals full stop! There will have to be a few at Goffs. Think I will head down with camera in tow. Unless it clashes with the end of year Cavan show but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t.

Terri

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5890579]
Again Viney…you’re not very aware of what you are speaking to.

I didn’t set out to “breed for other breeders” . I had top mares from some of the best stamms in the world and they just have so happened to produce about 75% fillies for me thus far…hence the being scooped up for breeding comment and they are not very likely to wind up in the show ring when they are the ONLY representatives of this line in North America. They are from the stamm of Carlo who is recently ranked 11th in the world. If you want this line , you have to get it from me. You can’t even get in Germany right now.

Again you assume and mis-speak when you imply that someone is breeding for a specific thing. I’m breeding for sporthorses…not quite sure what you are doing ?

I think you need to get your nose out of the computer screen , out of the books , quit making assumptions about what people may or may not be doing and get your butt in the fields ,barns , showrings and sit at the coffee tables of folks who really know what’s going on.

My horses may or may not show up in the future as I have severely scaled back my breeding operation since my wife passed away a few years back. She did all the training and riding , I did the breeding. I don’t have her anymore and am a one man show here. I have sold all my stamms and now only breed with one family of horses. My main mare is in foal for the 9th time and has had only 2 colts ,one of them being born this year. Her first daughter by Cassini II is 7 this year and she is the one ranked.

Don’t ever challenge the knowledge of myself or anyone else based simply on the fact whether they have a horse ranked somewhere or not. Hell , I didn’t even know about my #289 ranked horse until it was posted here. She’s in one of the top show jumping barns in the country and we should see her move up if everyone keeps the paperwork straight.

again …get your butt out of the computer chair and get your mudd boots on and go and try and learn something instead of coming on here spouting off pedigrees and challenging folks breeding programs when you haven’t done squat yourself.[/QUOTE]

This post is offensive. Vinny has knowledge AND class. You have knowledge that has been given to you and you…

I really do appreciate your posts, in spite of the the above.

Yes, I do have a mare (Dutch) from a holsteiner stamm. She was bred by Nick. Jazz/Contender.

[QUOTE=Katis;5898116]
This post is offensive. Vinny has knowledge AND class. You have knowledge that has been given to you and you…

I really do appreciate your posts, in spite of the the above.

Yes, I do have a mare (Dutch) from a holsteiner stamm. She was bred by Nick. Jazz/Contender.[/QUOTE]

Viney doesn’t have breeding knowledge or warmblood knowledge… she has extensive book knowledge regarding Tb’s. I’m sorry you find that offensive but I stand by my remarks.

Yes , I know the filly you bought from Nick. Congrats !

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5898387]
Viney doesn’t have breeding knowledge or warmblood knowledge… she has extensive book knowledge regarding Tb’s. I’m sorry you find that offensive but I stand by my remarks.

Yes , I know the filly you bought from Nick. Congrats ![/QUOTE]

Is it not a amalgamation of lots of qualities that makes a resource valuable. I think saying because you feel she only has extensive book knowledge is a little like anyone saying because you are a self admitted none rider you also are lacking a facet in breeding. I would be hesitant to discredit for fear of losing a valuable resource. If I want to know about lines that developed from Tourbillon or Black Dutchess I’d take a seat and listen to Viney. If I was asking about the type mares that Livello might cross best with I’d knock on your or Nicks door. I think the prior thread about why we are not breeding the best horses…leads its self to this thread. Is there this kind of bickering and mudslinging in Europe s breeding communities? I’d guess not from my very shallow perspective ; while many have sire and mare lines /breeds and types they specialize in most if not all are thrilled to talk shop and explain and re explain and then show and explain again what each cross might bring to the table.

How many studs open their arms to buyers, lookers and even tire kickers and parade their best spending hrs talking about lines that they say reach all the way back to before Moses.

We can’t build a better mouse trap because we all fight like cats and dogs. :frowning:

[QUOTE=hackinaround;5898590]
Is it not a amalgamation of lots of qualities that makes a resource valuable. I think saying because you feel she only has extensive book knowledge is a little like anyone saying because you are a self admitted none rider you also are lacking a facet in breeding. I would be hesitant to discredit for fear of losing a valuable resource. If I want to know about lines that developed from Tourbillon or Black Dutchess I’d take a seat and listen to Viney. If I was asking about the type mares that Livello might cross best with I’d knock on your or Nicks door. I think the prior thread about why we are not breeding the best horses…leads its self to this thread. Is there this kind of bickering and mudslinging in Europe s breeding communities? I’d guess not from my very shallow perspective ; while many have sire and mare lines /breeds and types they specialize in most if not all are thrilled to talk shop and explain and re explain and then show and explain again what each cross might bring to the table.

How many studs open their arms to buyers, lookers and even tire kickers and parade their best spending hrs talking about lines that they say reach all the way back to before Moses.

We can’t build a better mouse trap because we all fight like cats and dogs. :([/QUOTE]

I agree with you with one exception.

I gave Viney dues by saying she has “extensive” Tb knowledge albeit book or otherwise. The problem is when you enter a conversation making assumptions and remarks about something you know nothing about.

Do you ever see myself entering a TB breeding or pedigree discussion ? No. Why ? Because I know nothing about it. I leave that to folks like Viney , TKR , Equilibrium etc.

It would be equilivent to someone telling me to get my butt out from behind the computer and out to the race track or the hunter barn because I don’t know what I’m speaking to. In which case , I either would get out to the track or quit commenting on things I know nothing about.