DNA testing a sale horse

[Twisting]

So, wondering about the ethics of running a 5 panel on a horse I don’t own.

Backstory.

Barnmate was given a cute little 6 year old Breeding stock paint mare for free. She is soft and sensitive with a good mind and an adorable jump. He is not getting along with her because he’s far to gung-ho for her. He just works her all up into a tizzy. Luckily he put her in training with someone who’s opinion I trust. Trainer says she is salvageable and is responding well to training. Owner told me to make him an offer.

The problem. She is Impressive bred and owner didn’t know about HYPP until someone brought it up today. I am watching trainer ride her tomorrow and I was thinking of pulling some hair and paying to have her tested. If she is negative, offering owner $1000, if she is positive letting the owner know the result and passing on her.

How shady is that? I would let the owner know of a result that would effect the health of the horse. He is a shrewd haggler though, and if she is clean I don’t want to give him more leverage.

[No1]

It’s shady if you don’t tell him. The correct thing to to do would be make an offer and have it pending results. Then, it would be just like any prepurchase drug screen, etc.

[volvo_240]

Super shady, and ethics aside what if he won’t accept 1k? Now you are out the money for the test for no reason.

[Twisting]

I geek out on science and genetics and don’t mind being out the test money.

[mmeqcenter]

If you are upfront and honest with the seller, I don’t think it is shady. Tell him about HYPP, that you are unwilling to buy her without knowing her status, and he can either get her tested or you can get her tested, or you will pass, his choice. Most anyone who knows about HYPP and sees she’s an Impressive-bred will want her tested if interested in buying her. My first horse was an Impressive paint mare, I had never heard of HYPP. I had her for sale, and a buyer noticed her bloodlines and told me the deal, and asked me to get her tested. It wasn’t shady at all. I agree with the poster that said make an offer first, pending PPE which includes HYPP test.
The test is like $35.

If you pull hair and send it out without his knowledge, that’s shady AF.

[Twisting]

Alright, consensus is that it is shady, and I won’t do it. He has already been told about HYPP by another individual, and has no intention of testing the mare. I won’t buy her without a test, so I will let him know I want to have it done and offer to pay for it.

I am curious as to why it is shady though?

If I took a video of a horse and had it analyzed by a vet for lameness without telling the owner would that be shady? If I took pictures of a horse and had it’s conformation reviewed by a pro would that be shady? How is taking DNA and having it analyzed for flaws any different? How is it not just the default in this day and age?

[clanter]

@Twisting

She is Impressive bred and owner didn’t know about HYPP

my guess is the horse is Said To Be By Impressive and not really registered or even may not even be a quarter horse

Under a rule approved by the AQHA board of directors in March 2004, foals born in 2007 and thereafter who carry two copies of the HYPP gene–known as homozygous positive (H/H)-- will be barred from registration

[Twisting]

Horse is a breeding stock paint, and is not registered with the AQHA. APHA has only required HYPP status on registrations since 2018. Mare is 6.

[rulex]

@Twisting

If I took a video of a horse and had it analyzed by a vet for lameness without telling the owner would that be shady? If I took pictures of a horse and had it’s conformation reviewed by a pro would that be shady? How is taking DNA and having it analyzed for flaws any different?

First of all taking video or pictures without the owner’s knowledge or consent is shady. That said, having a vet or pro’s opinion is different because it’s an opinion. As another potential buyer, I’m none too fussed what another random vet or random pro thinks about a horses’ lameness or conformation for your own purposes.

DNA results on the other hand should become part of the horse’s medical record and an honest seller should feel obligated to disclose to any other potential buyers.

When I was considering an untested Impressive bred gelding I was prepared to make an offer with refundable deposit pending test results and PPE.

[bingbingbing]

@Twisting

How is taking DNA and having it analyzed for flaws any different? How is it not just the default in this day and age?

Default in this day and age? Ugh! What kind of thinking is this? How is it close to ok to take a specimen from another person’s horse and send it off for testing without their permission/knowledge? I would be beyond livid if I was the owner and found this out. And I for sure would not sell you my horse or want my horse at any barn that you were at. Shady 100%.

[Ruth0552]

Mmmmm. Well is her likely to disclose her breeding and possibility of her having HYPP to other potential buyers? Even if they are uneducated like her was? Because that is also Shady AF and super unethical. I suppose that might be none of your business, but I do think that would influence my decision in testing without permission.

[bingbingbing]

@Ruth0552

Mmmmm. Well is her likely to disclose her breeding and possibility of her having HYPP to other potential buyers? Even if they are uneducated like her was? Because that is also Shady AF and super unethical. I suppose that might be none of your business, but I do think that would influence my decision in testing without permission.

No one is saying not to get the horse tested if she wants to buy the mare with the owner’s knowledge. It is not ethical to take a sample from another person’s horse without their permission and I am thinking it is possibly illegal.

[Ghazzu]

@Twisting

If I took a video of a horse and had it analyzed by a vet for lameness without telling the owner would that be shady? If I took pictures of a horse and had it’s conformation reviewed by a pro would that be shady? How is taking DNA and having it analyzed for flaws any different? How is it not just the default in this day and age?

If I boarded with you, and took some wisps of hair out of your helmet and sent them to 23and me, would you consider that shady?

[S1969]

@bingbingbing

No one is saying not to get the horse tested if she wants to buy the mare with the owner’s knowledge. It is not ethical to take a sample from another person’s horse without their permission and I am thinking it is possibly illegal.

This, exactly.

It might be illegal. It is certainly unethical.

[Twisting]

@Ghazzu

If I boarded with you, and took some wisps of hair out of your helmet and sent them to 23and me, would you consider that shady?

All my hair fell out with the chemo, but I wouldn’t care. I would wonder why you cared about it, since you aren’t planning on purchasing me.

[Simkie]

@Twisting

All my hair fell out with the chemo, but I wouldn’t care. I would wonder why you cared about it, since you aren’t planning on purchasing me.

Let’s expand the analogy to make it a little more applicable.

We board together and I like you. I want to ask you out, but before I do that, I’m going to steal some of your hair and have it tested, to make sure you don’t have any genetic disease that would impact our future children. If you do, I’m not going ask you out.

Do you understand how that’s a huge violation of your privacy and extremely unethical?

[Twisting]

@bingbingbing

Default in this day and age? Ugh! What kind of thinking is this? How is it close to ok to take a specimen from another person’s horse and send it off for testing without their permission/knowledge? I would be beyond livid if I was the owner and found this out. And I for sure would not sell you my horse or want my horse at any barn that you were at. Shady 100%.

Why isn’t DNA testing in general default in this day and age? Why doesn’t everyone have a horse they want to purchase DNA tested? Why would I even have to go out of my way to request it from the owner, why wouldn’t he assume I wanted it DNA tested, especially when it has a bloodline with a known issue.

I do think it is adorable that you think I am some DNA bandit that would steal your horse’s DNA if you even dared to stable it in the same barn as me.

[Simkie]

@Twisting

Why doesn’t everyone have a horse they want to purchase DNA tested? Why would I even have to go out of my way to request it from the owner, why wouldn’t he assume I wanted it DNA tested, especially when it has a bloodline with a known issue.

This isn’t your horse. You cannot STEAL material from something that doesn’t belong to you, and use it to inform your purchasing decisions. It doesn’t matter than a few hairs don’t have any real value–it still doesn’t belong to you.

If you’d like to test the horse, you have to ask the owner.

This isn’t any different than asking before borrowing someone’s saddle or brushes or bridle. Or do you take those items without asking permission, too?

[afjordlife]

Running medical tests on another person’s animal without their knowledge or consent is super shady.

I had a horse vetted earlier this year to buy with possible PSSM 2 that had never been tested. I asked the owner if I could do a muscle biopsy after i had made a solid offer pending a negative test. She declined and I walked away. It was a shame because I really liked the horse a lot and might still have bought him, but it was her choice and I accepted that.

[Twisting]

@Simkie

Let’s expand the analogy to make it a little more applicable.

We board together and I like you. I want to ask you out, but before I do that, I’m going to steal some of your hair and have it tested, to make sure you don’t have any genetic disease that would impact our future children. If you do, I’m not going ask you out.

Do you understand how that’s a huge violation of your privacy and extremely unethical?

I can see how many would think that, I wouldn’t, as I just really don’t care. Probably because I had myself sterilized years ago, which will have a much bigger impact on “our future children”.

And again, a person is not a horse I would want to purchase from an owner who may, purposefully or not, keep pertinent information from me about the animal’s health status. I, frankly, don’t trust any seller to tell me the truth about an animal.

@Simkie

This isn’t your horse. You cannot STEAL material from something that doesn’t belong to you, and use it to inform your purchasing decisions. It doesn’t matter than a few hairs don’t have any real value–it still doesn’t belong to you.

If you’d like to test the horse, you have to ask the owner.

This isn’t any different than asking before borrowing someone’s saddle or brushes or bridle. Or do you take those items without asking permission, too?

I already accepted that it was shady and that I will have to ask. I am willing to adjust my opinions. My questions was why would it not be assumed by every owner that a buyer would want the DNA test, making a specific request a unnecessary because it would be a given.