I use a short shank english hackamore on my TB mare for almost everything and only use a bit(happy mouth mullen) when I am showing. I have plenty of brakes with it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/simbalism/6542500701/
Does she have whoa in the arena? Or is she whoa-less no matter where she is?
To answer the question, it depends on the bitless bridle that you’re talking about. I ride my horse in a hackamore (it’s called a bozo sidepull but it is more than a sidepull) and yes, it does have whoa. I wrapped every part of it that touches him in vetrap and sheepskin and it still has plenty of whoa. I barrel raced him for years in it. It allows me just as much control as any bit. I can fine tune any turn, gait change, or lead change.
If you decide to ride with a hackamore, you need to learn to let go of contact, it will take some training for both of you. It is a ask and release kind of ride.
I don’t think anything you put on a horse will stop her if she doesn’t want to stop.
My horses all have excellent “brakes” bitless. They stop fine with a neck rope too. They stop because they choose to stop when I ask them too, though, because nothing I can do will MAKE them stop.
I think you have a training issue, maybe brought on by pain, not a bit issue. Much as I love bitless, it’s not going to solve your problem, IMO.
as stated, we bought this horse in september and she DID have brakes then. We would not have bought a horse that did not stop.
We rarely use the arena, we trail ride. So i have to refresh her when the snow is gone from the arena. We both are very light with our hands and we try to stay off the mouth most of the time, but she has started to ignore our cues and we are unsure what makes a horse unlearn the whoa.
i have a sidepull i might try in the arena, it tends to lower the nose, and that might help. idk. we know we have to work with her but i also want ideas on what works, without turning to a harsher bit.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7471706]
as stated, we bought this horse in september and she DID have brakes then. We would not have bought a horse that did not stop.
We rarely use the arena, we trail ride. So i have to refresh her when the snow is gone from the arena. We both are very light with our hands and we try to stay off the mouth most of the time, but she has started to ignore our cues and we are unsure what makes a horse unlearn the whoa.
i have a sidepull i might try in the arena, it tends to lower the nose, and that might help. idk. we know we have to work with her but i also want ideas on what works, without turning to a harsher bit.[/QUOTE]
When you bought her in September I imagine she had been ridden regularly. Since You bought her ( and especially in the last 3 months) how many long hard rides has she had? I am thinking your problem is a combination of many days between rides, not enough wet saddle blankets, stuffing herself with hay, footing conditions that limit her burning off excess energy, and she just wants to go once she hits the trail. I would just wait until your arena footing is solid enough to work her butt off for a week consistently . Use the bit you were using when you bought her.
Maybe you should not own such a horse, if you cannot cope ?
[QUOTE=Equibrit;7471847]
Maybe you should not own such a horse, if you cannot cope ?[/QUOTE]
That is both unhelpful and rude.
[QUOTE=candyappy;7471841]
When you bought her in September I imagine she had been ridden regularly. Since You bought her ( and especially in the last 3 months) how many long hard rides has she had? I am thinking your problem is a combination of many days between rides, not enough wet saddle blankets, stuffing herself with hay, footing conditions that limit her burning off excess energy, and she just wants to go once she hits the trail. I would just wait until your arena footing is solid enough to work her butt off for a week consistently . Use the bit you were using when you bought her.[/QUOTE]
Of course she is fresh and spring is in the air. but when i want ‘Whoa’, i want it now. We should not have to spin her or anything else to get her to listen. We are using the bit we used on her when we got her. as stated above we DO plan to work with her.
Equibrit? Who said we cannot cope? My question was about bitless bridles. Jeez.
Bitless bridles have brakes, you just have to give the hand aid differently.
DO NOT HAVE A CONSTANT PULL. If you pull hard the skin will numb up and the horse will use you like a fifth leg OR the bitless hits some of the cranial nerves wrong and the horse just starts throwing his head around.
When I need emergency brakes the hand aid that works the best for me is a quick rotation of my wrists when the horse’s head is headed up (and that happens even at a trot.) Sort of a quick half-halt with immediate release. Repeat if needed. I always make sure to fully release the contact between the half-halts (relaxing my fingers), if I do not release I cause all types of problems with my irritated/in pain horse.
However my normal halt signal in the bitless is loosening the reins some, sitting back, and breathing out.
I have yet run into a bitless that gives me satisfactory contact like I can get with a bit. When I keep contact with a bitless (3 cross-overs, LG, LiteRider, jumping cavesson, Micklem) I either irritate the horse’s nose or the skin on the nose looses feeling and I end up carrying the horse’s head.
Enjoy your bitless riding, it can be great fun for both horse and rider.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7472006]
Of course she is fresh and spring is in the air. but when i want ‘Whoa’, i want it now. We should not have to spin her or anything else to get her to listen. We are using the bit we used on her when we got her. as stated above we DO plan to work with her. [/QUOTE]
OP, you do need to provide some allowance for spring fever and what, very honestly, sounds like candyappy was saying: not enough regular work that releases enough energy. Don’t know if you have kids, or maybe a dog, but you probably wouldn’t ask them to focus if they were feeling frisky. You’d tell your kid to go play outside for an hour, or let the dog out/go play fetch for a while. The same goes for horses: you cannot ever expect a horse with excess energy to focus. It’s unrealistic and will never lead to anything productive. If you don’t have a place to lunge this mare or do some sort of groundwork with her until the footing gets better, let her be until such time.
Sometimes horses really just need 15 minutes to kick up their heels before being asked to go work. It’s a small price to pay for a more focused horse. So, you’re right, you shouldn’t have to spin a horse or do anything else to get a solid stop. But you shouldn’t expect her to be willing to stop if she’s feeling her oats, either.
As an aside, I think you may be missing the point of what most people are saying here. Your mare won’t respond any better w/o a bit than with one. Her issue is not that she has become adverse to the bit: that would really be the only logical reason why you’d try a bitless bridle. A bitless bridle doesn’t have more “whoa” than any other form of headgear. Her issue lies somewhere else, either with physical pain, lack of consistent exercise which = excess energy, or a hole in her training. My bet is the 2nd one.
[QUOTE=acoustic;7471871]
That is both unhelpful and rude.[/QUOTE]
On the contrary. This situation sounds like a disaster in the making.
Nezzy -
I read your post (and follow-up posts) and I think in your case that the “Honeymoon” is over. The mare may have been a trail horse before, but maybe you don’t know her real past, maybe her “blasting down the trail” was the reason she was sold to that Eq center for a ring horse. Could be that the last 4 years of her life, being in the ring and only the ring, was the control that put the “whoa” on her. Your husband’s first couple of times out on the mare were the Honeymoon stage where the mare was in a new place, new owner, and still behaving as if she was in a ring. Once she figured out the trail would be her new environment, the “real” horse has come to the fore.
It certainly isn’t any fun, and I feel bad for your husband…and you.
There isn’t anything you’d need to do to try out a bitless and see if it works - simply ride her out (preferably in the arena but if you’re brave, do it on the trail) in a not too loose/ not too tight halter with the reins attached to the hardware, and a third rein attached to a chain over her nose. If she goes to take off and blows through the reins pressure on her nose, you have the chain to pull and (hopefully) stop her. Not many horses would try to run through a hard yank (or two or three) of a chain across the nose. You can also carry a bridle over your shoulder in case you want to do a tack exchange further down the trail.
There is one or two things I would do, however, before that experiment. First, look for pain: Try a different saddle, or several different ones, to see if she responds differently. Try a different rider to hack her down the trail to see if she responds differently. If the saddle switch and rider switch make no impression, and she was calm, happy, and mannerly at the Eq center, then you may just have a rank horse…one in which a bitless just isn’t going to make much of an impression unless it is a hackamore.
I wish you the best of luck, and hope you find a happy compromise.
OP, when you are hand-walking or long-lining her (i.e., whilst not mounted) on the trail and you give her whatever cue you use to signal that you want her to stop, does she come to an immediate dead stop, or does she still exhibit the same unwanted behavior?
Brakes are trained into the horse. A bit or any other type of bridle will only stop a horse if it has been trained to stop.
[QUOTE=californianinkansas;7472797]
OP, when you are hand-walking or long-lining her (i.e., whilst not mounted) on the trail and you give her whatever cue you use to signal that you want her to stop, does she come to an immediate dead stop, or does she still exhibit the same unwanted behavior?[/QUOTE]
She is very well behaved on the ground. and She did have brakes. she had great brakes. i just don’t get it. And her saddle does fit.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7472838]
She is very well behaved on the ground. and She did have brakes. she had great brakes. i just don’t get it. And her saddle does fit.[/QUOTE]
A fellow boarder decided to hop on her OTTB last weekend for the first time since before winter. Her horse has been in regular daily turnout but hasn’t been ridden or worked with for MONTHS. She bridled him in her usual rope halter setup (read: Parelli), and she was surprised and angry when he wigged out a couple minutes after she got on him and tried to ride out of the confines of the arena, and he started bouncing around like a beach ball. 
My own OTTB-- whom I HAVE kept in regular work all winter, trail-riding through this wretched snow, road-riding when necessary, etc., etc.-- isn’t quite trustworthy in a bitless bridle just yet this season. In the summer, I could put a toddler on him bareback with a halter if I wanted, and he’d probably “whoa” by hand gestures alone. Two weeks ago, I was trail-riding on the buckle; last weekend, half our trail ride was a jig-fest. In a month, we’ll probably be back in the bitless. It is what it is.
At THIS time of year, even the best of horses just need to burn off some excess energy, and in my experience, the more upset you (the rider) get, and the more you try to “rein” the horse in, it’s just like shaking a Coke bottle-- it only makes things worse, and it invites an explosion.
Tight little “punishment” circles when Horsie acts up = usually bad. Big 10- to 20-meter circles in a forward, WORKING trot = better. Get the feet and brain moving FORWARD with PURPOSE-- don’t shake the Coke bottle!!
And when in doubt, get thee some lessons with a reputable trainer, and/or get a more qualified rider up on your mare.
[QUOTE=cnvh;7472878]
A fellow boarder decided to hop on her OTTB last weekend for the first time since before winter. Her horse has been in regular daily turnout but hasn’t been ridden or worked with for MONTHS. She bridled him in her usual rope halter setup (read: Parelli), and she was surprised and angry when he wigged out a couple minutes after she got on him and tried to ride out of the confines of the arena, and he started bouncing around like a beach ball.
My own OTTB-- whom I HAVE kept in regular work all winter, trail-riding through this wretched snow, road-riding when necessary, etc., etc.-- isn’t quite trustworthy in a bitless bridle just yet this season. In the summer, I could put a toddler on him bareback with a halter if I wanted, and he’d probably “whoa” by hand gestures alone. Two weeks ago, I was trail-riding on the buckle; last weekend, half our trail ride was a jig-fest. In a month, we’ll probably be back in the bitless. It is what it is.
At THIS time of year, even the best of horses just need to burn off some excess energy, and in my experience, the more upset you (the rider) get, and the more you try to “rein” the horse in, it’s just like shaking a Coke bottle-- it only makes things worse, and it invites an explosion.
Tight little “punishment” circles when Horsie acts up = usually bad. Big 10- to 20-meter circles in a forward, WORKING trot = better. Get the feet and brain moving FORWARD with PURPOSE-- don’t shake the Coke bottle!!
And when in doubt, get thee some lessons with a reputable trainer, and/or get a more qualified rider up on your mare.[/QUOTE]
This. Exactly.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7472838]
She is very well behaved on the ground. and She did have brakes. she had great brakes. i just don’t get it. And her saddle does fit.[/QUOTE]
The horse was a proper performer when you got here and now she is not. That means there was a change and it was on your watch. What was the change? Frankly, we don’t know. You asked about a specific piece of equipment and the overwhelming consensus is “no” to your question.
But you still don’t have an answer to the real question, “What caused the horse to alter their behavior?” Unless and until you answer this question you won’t get a satisfactory answer. Without a satisfactory (and that means “correct”) answer you won’t achieve a satisfactory result with the horse.
Perhaps at this point you should engage a good instructor and let them evaluate horse and rider. Video the lesson. This will likely be a “smug basher” for the rider as it’s more probable than not that the change is the result of rider input. It’s also quite possible there is not one, big issue but a bunch of really small ones. Here is where the eye of the instructor earns its pay.
Good luck in your project.
G.
Love the image! I have one of the coke bottle horses. He’s been in work all winter (footing permitting) and yet as the weather warms, he’s still bursting to go.
I know that for some horses, it’s better to send them forward with a purpose; with other horses (like mine), it’s better to just take them for a long, relaxing walk. Once he get’s shaken up, he will not settle and he’s got more than enough energy in him to wear me out. In either case, wet saddle blanket therapy may be the best solution to the problem.
Yup, I have a coke bottle horse too. On Monday he got SO wound up in the indoor that after I got him to do something relatively easy the right way, I called it a day. Totally agree it is (in our case, anyway) the weather. He’s normally totally obedient.
