I used a bitless on my mare for the entire 10 years I rode here. She is retired now, but we galloped, jumped, everything in it. She was great. She came to me in a double wire. I didn’t like the bit and she didn’t either. She got strong in it because she was afraid of it. She had been ridden by a heavy handed scared rider. Sometimes bitless or a hackmore work well on these types of horse. I tried my mare in it in the ring first. After that, we never looked back 
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7472006]
Of course she is fresh and spring is in the air. but when i want ‘Whoa’, i want it now. We should not have to spin her or anything else to get her to listen. We are using the bit we used on her when we got her. as stated above we DO plan to work with her.
.[/QUOTE]
Well you are not getting whoa when you ask for it, so obviously your mare has too much on her mind to listen to you. Since you didn’t answer how many rides she has actually had in 3 months, I can only guess it hasn’t been many.
Horses that are well trained don’t forget what they have been taught. They do sometimes need a refresher course on just who is in charge when riding becomes inconsistent ( like winter). This is not a bit or bitless issue.
[QUOTE=candyappy;7473516]
Well you are not getting whoa when you ask for it, so obviously your mare has too much on her mind to listen to you. Since you didn’t answer how many rides she has actually had in 3 months, I can only guess it hasn’t been many.
Horses that are well trained don’t forget what they have been taught. They do sometimes need a refresher course on just who is in charge when riding becomes inconsistent ( like winter). This is not a bit or bitless issue.[/QUOTE]
Sorry- i have no clue. We had snow and ice for the last 3 months so not very often. Since we are trail riders we barely ever use the arena. now that we need it, it is full of snow/ice/slush. But that does not mean a horse should forget how to stop or override the decision of the rider.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7473635]
Sorry- i have no clue. We had snow and ice for the last 3 months so not very often. Since we are trail riders we barely ever use the arena. now that we need it, it is full of snow/ice/slush. But that does not mean a horse should forget how to stop or override the decision of the rider. [/QUOTE]
I have been riding for 33 years now, and I’m not sure I have EVER encountered a horse who was incapable of having a “screw the rider” moment. Heck, my first fall was at age 5, off a 30+ year old arthritic lesson horse who decided during a Games Day that he felt a little frisky on the trot back from the “relay race” and broke into a canter on the trip back down the arena, sending little bobblehead me flying. The instructor said afterwards that it was the first time she saw that old horse canter in over a year. :lol:
It’s a horse, not a car. Even the best ones will test you every now and then; it just means you have to work through it and not get yourself worked up over it.
And 99% of the time, the problem is US, not THEM. Time for some honest soul-searching on this one…
[QUOTE=Bogie;7473077]
Love the image! I have one of the coke bottle horses. He’s been in work all winter (footing permitting) and yet as the weather warms, he’s still bursting to go.
I know that for some horses, it’s better to send them forward with a purpose; with other horses (like mine), it’s better to just take them for a long, relaxing walk. Once he get’s shaken up, he will not settle and he’s got more than enough energy in him to wear me out. In either case, wet saddle blanket therapy may be the best solution to the problem.[/QUOTE]
Probably a better analogy is to POUR from the Coke bottle, Don’t cap and shake it. 
Any horse, at any time, can have a “monday.”
G.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7473635]
Sorry- i have no clue. We had snow and ice for the last 3 months so not very often. Since we are trail riders we barely ever use the arena. now that we need it, it is full of snow/ice/slush. But that does not mean a horse should forget how to stop or override the decision of the rider.[/QUOTE]
In my home country, horses had winters off. It was believed to be a great tool for maintaining the mental stability and willingness of sport horses. The ground was pretty bad anyway- either too hard or too slushy, so it was a good time.
Since, they were all stabled 24/7, we still had to take them out daily, but there was no work to speak of and the horses, under the rider, were allowed to move in the walk, slow trot max (the conditions of the ground).
This set up made for some interesting rides as soon as spring knocked on the door and we were allowed to move them out.
All horses and this included superbly trained, “turn key,” high level dressage horses turned into broncos for first two weeks or so.
There was no way around it. Even with in-hand you can only get so far.
We dreaded these first spring rides, but it made us better riders overall.
In our cases, all our horses “forgot.” To this day, I think, it is quite normal behavior.
You all should be fine, once you get back on the regular program.
[QUOTE=cnvh;7473813]
Probably a better analogy is to POUR from the Coke bottle, Don’t cap and shake it. :D[/QUOTE]
You could also shake the crap out of it until it goes flat.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7473635]
Sorry- i have no clue. (…) But that does not mean a horse should forget how to stop or override the decision of the rider.[/QUOTE]
Well, yes it does.
Horses are no cars. Actually, even cars need maintenance in order to work properly.
If you don’t know/understand why and how a horse can be un-trained and you don’t know how to re-train a horse, I will say that this horse is not for you.
Take lessons. More lessons and some more.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7473635]
Sorry- i have no clue. We had snow and ice for the last 3 months so not very often. Since we are trail riders we barely ever use the arena. now that we need it, it is full of snow/ice/slush. But that does not mean a horse should forget how to stop or override the decision of the rider.[/QUOTE]
I feel your frustration believe me! We differ in the fact that after 3 months off ( my mare usually gets 4-5 months for extreme cold and deep snow) I would ( and do) expect my mare to need a week of re-organizing her mind by lunging first and then confined area work. I only ride out on trail myself and even my “old” horse had a few days of refresher work after his customary month off when I lived in a warmer climate.
There are some horses who you can hop on and just mosey off down the trail after inconsistent riding but I have never been fortunate to have those.
It would be easier if we could talk to our horses, but she is clearly showing/ telling you that she needs a refresher before she can be trusted on the trail at this time. I am sure with the melting and warming it will all work out once your arena is usable again.
an update- we tried our sidepull on her and it seemed to work great. Hubby and friends have been riding her and all was fine and she has started to get rammy again. She wants to walk very fast and does not want to slow down. Our farm had some property line dispute and the arena we had has been turned into a paddock bc there was a paddock that had to be closed as the property lin dispute rages on. so we have a round pen but no arena. She seems to go in cycles. when we brought her home, she was wonderful and got progressively worse. Same when we tried the sidepull. I am being lent a Myler combination bit. I can try it for a while and decide if i want to buy one. Ugh. if that does not work i may send her for training.
I would say she has your number. Training for both riders and horse is needed.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7595802]
She wants to walk very fast and does not want to slow down. [/QUOTE]
Is this a bad thing?? When my daughter and I ride together she is way, way behind because my mare has a much faster walk. If I tried to make my mare match her horse we would have major issues. Is your trouble starting when you try to make her walk slowly? If so, I honestly believe that this horse isn’t right for what you want to do with her. Having to hold her back at every gait will make her very unhappy. Let the others speed up to keep pace with you , or just let her walk at what is comfortable for her.
no all riders are good. it’s the horse that needs the help.
[QUOTE=cutter99;7595933]
I would say she has your number. Training for both riders and horse is needed.[/QUOTE]
that is extremely disrespectful. you have never seen ANY of us ride and i can tell you we are all very good riders.
How is that disrespectful? It is common sense. Something is not working in this situation, whether it be lack of training of either the horse or riders or lack of communication between them. And what you are doing is not working, as per your own admission. Absolutely nothing wrong with seeking professional advice!
And I see I’m not the only person on this tread to have offered you that advice.
[QUOTE=BEARCAT;7469710]
Bridles don’t have brakes, horses do, and those are installed and serviced by a good mechanic (trainer.)[/QUOTE]
Couldn’t have said it better.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7596090]
that is extremely disrespectful. you have never seen ANY of us ride and i can tell you we are all very good riders.[/QUOTE]
A “very good rider” understands that equipment is not a stand-in for training. A “very good rider” lets go of the ego when something is not working for them and has no issue seeking a professional’s help.
Right now, OP, you aren’t doing either. Let go of the ego and send your mare for training. There is nothing wrong with that: it is, in this situation, the smart thing to do.
It sounds like you’ve tried a few different bits with varying results and the problem keeps coming back. Perhaps the next logical step would be to start looking elsewhere to identify the problem? My first places to look when a problem like this starts are saddle fit and teeth. Since you already said her teeth have been checked and rechecked maybe take a closer look at your saddle. Even if it fit her when you got her, weight gain/loss, changes in muscle etc. could mean what fit her when you got her is now causing her pain. You also mentioned the problem comes and goes in cycles. Do these cycles coincide with her heat cycle? If so it may be worth looking into the possibility that she may be having painful heat cycles. Just some food for thought. Good luck with her and you may need to start thinking outside the box to fix the problem.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7596090]
that is extremely disrespectful. you have never seen ANY of us ride and i can tell you we are all very good riders.[/QUOTE]
You may be a good rider. Are you a good trainer/schooler? Do not take this as an insult. It’s a question. I know a lot of good riders that just don’t teach their horse very well.
I’ve been riding a very forward Marchador in a sidepull for about 12 weeks due to a dentition issue. When we began he very quickly figured out that I had less “power” to control his behavior and he got kind of “chargy” when he decided he’d had “enough.”
So we did a LOT of circles and exercises to get him to move in a more relaxed fashion. He found out that you can do a “one rein stop” in a sidepull. When he decided to nose out and speed up we “went to the principle’s office” and he had to stop and stand, bent, until he lowered his head and relaxed. Then the difficult stance went away and he could move easily. It took almost three weeks of regular riding to get him to respond to the light rein cue that signaled the beginning of that “trip to the office.” Now on a rare occasion he gets “chargy” all I need to do is raise either hand slightly and sit back slightly and he immediately comes back into hand. It wasn’t the device that gave me the control; it was my effectively utilizing my entire body (under the close supervision of a good teacher/coach to ensure the I didn’t get sloppy) that did the job.
We have been concentrating on moving forward in a relaxed and controlled fashion. This means he’s learning “self carriage”. This is also a slow process because he has to develop the musculature to carry himself vice have me holding his head up. Again, the sidepull is not ideal for this but it can work. It must be used in a very consistent manner. My instructor demands consistency from me and thus I can demand it from the horse. This also requires me to keep a strong, balanced seat and to be effective with my legs.
Indeed, this last week I’ve gotten a “side benefit” I’m very happy with. I’m preparing him to go to the National Cavalry Competition (http://www.uscavalry.org/events/current-events.html). This means he’s got to broke to the pistol and the saber. This means I have to ride one handed. He is very quickly beginning to “neck rein” but there’s little “neck” involved. It’s mostly leg and seat. All I can say is OOO-RAH!
I’m not a fan of “bitless” devices for general purpose riding. I feel that too much “communication” is sacrificed. Before we go to Ft. Reno my gelding will back in a bit as what happens there requires a rider to be in control of their horse for everyone’s safety. But for now it’s working to do what I need to do.
G.
