Do dressage riders ever use a pulley rein?

[sascha]

Have either of these excellent trainers bothered to do any in hand work with your horse? I’m specifically thinking of proper rein back in hand - so full longeing tack including side reins, and the proper use of the butt of the in hand whip on the chest to encourage him to understand the voice cue? I’m betting not or that horse would be happy to rein back under a talented rider with a BNT trainer on the ground.

As for a pulley rein? Was the horse about to bolt into traffic or some other dangerous situation, or in a continued out of control gallop? No? Then, no to using a pulley rein. It’s an emergency brake only.

Some horses can be stubborn about learning rein back - it’s not entirely natural, especially after we’ve spent so long instilling FORWARDS!!! and it can be uncomfortable for those that are weak(ish) in the stifle area. But, just as teaching turn on the forehand from the ground makes teaching it under saddle so much easier, so does teaching rein back properly from the ground. Physical cue tied to voice cue = far greater understanding when you’re up top and ask for it. I think often times, as dressage riders we’re so afraid to get into the habit of using our voice that we forget what a powerful aid it can be when used well.

[sammy14]

This could actually be a pivotal moment for you OP. This is the time where a talented horse who’s been well trained and successful can go from being ‘‘golden boy’’ in your mind to ‘‘little bugger, make him do it’’
Don’t go there. Treat him as a horse who is learning, and don’t start punishing him for not complying. His training is ALL on you. In the end he’s an innocent bystander, and we all owe them more than treating them as though they are deliberately thwarting us. They don’t think that way , and they can’t imagine what a little understandable resistance can mean for their future, if the owner then thinks it’s OK to get rough with them.
Know better, do better.

[Lord_Helpus]

Sammy14, you are making an excellent point. I have been in horses for 60 years (H/J for many decades to Eventing to Dressage, which is new to me). I have had to stop riding because of a problem with proprioception, so I have asked the best people I know to develop this young horse. Because of my background I have learned to cherry pick from each discipline when evaluating the best training methods for each sport, and many tools cross over from one discipline to another.

The pulley rein is useful in jumpers – George Morris even devoted an hour of his Horsemastership Clinic on its use. Is is a viable tool there, especially in speed classes when instantaneously changing from speed between fences to jumping 1.50 verticals, and then asking for speed again.

Which is why I was curious to know why it was also not used in dressage. Now that I have read these answers, I can see why – and I have learned lots.

My horse lives on my farm and I do 90% of the ground work (lunging/conditioning) with him, but have left the mounted training to the experts. Thanks to this thread, I can see that I need to be proactive on this aspect of his groundwork, so I can present a horse to his trainers who has the tools to benefit from their expertise.

It is pouring rain now, so it is a good day to work in the barn aisle.

[Shiaway]

Teaching a horse to rein back doesn’t take force (or a gold medal for that matter), it takes patience and feel. Well it is your horse anyway.

So to the question, I know a pulley rein–it is for when your horse is bolting on you and it doesn’t work on more clever horses who know how to run with their head turned. Ask me how I know. Never heard it used as anything else. Is that what people do now–use it as a training aid? Sad.

[Lucassb]

[QUOTE=hoopoe;8681510]
the best correction for a resisting rein back is to trot forward and re-address a forward halt to a closing hand. In the halt you do not yield away the hand but press forward with seat and leg to a closed but alive hand.

Agree with others the pulley rein has no place in dressage except when you are being carted. You don’t fight the mouth.[/QUOTE]

This.

[achcosuva]

[QUOTE=sascha;8681563]
I think often times, as dressage riders we’re so afraid to get into the habit of using our voice that we forget what a powerful aid it can be when used well.[/QUOTE]
This! I voice train greenies, then slowly wean off the voice. It makes my instructor so uncomfortable that I’m using voice, but even she cannot deny the results it has had on all sorts of issues. If you train yourself to always say whatever voice cue with the same intonation, the voice aid will always have clarity and be the same. A change of tack, no-rider to rider, etc can change the ‘feeling’ of a physical aid to the horse; it can muffle the clarity of the aid. A voice aid does not change whether the trainer is leading, long-lining, longing, in the saddle with a groundsperson, etc. In addition, unlike many of the physical aids, a voice aid cannot escalate into pain (unless, I guess, you have a really high-pitched voice? :lol:). In training the young or green horse, I believe we need to embrace the voice aid!

Sorry to derail. Um, to the original question: I learned the pulley rein as h/j lesson kid going on group trail rides during the lesson barn’s summer day camps. It was featured in a ‘what to do if you’re run away with’ lesson. I’ve never heard of it used for anything except bolting.

[Rosie_B]

I know this thread isn’t about backing, but wanted to share my experience in case it’s helpful to anyone.

I have a young horse who was resistant to backing at first as well.

I didn’t start backing him under saddle until he was 5 and a half, which was probably late, but I wanted him to be strong enough. He had been backing in hand beautifully for a long time before that.

When I first started it under saddle, he would go sideways instead of backward. My trainer identified that he was going sideways because he was blocking on that leg. So we went sideways in the other direction a few steps, then tried the reinback again. Whaddya know, he stepped promptly back off light aids with no resistance.

I had to do that easy correction once or twice at most each ride for the first couple weeks, (only schooling backing every 2nd ride or so), and now he backs beautifully.

[csaper58]

OP, Which ‘Pulley Rein’ are you asking about?

1. The mechanical system of pulley draw reins, that has an actual pulley on the rein.

2. The ‘One Rein Emergency Stop’ method of pulling up a bolting horse.

Both are being discussed here. I don’t believe either will help teach a horse to back up.

It sound like your horse is hollowing his back & lifting his his head in response to over-use of the bit when being asked to back.

Both the horse and the rider need to learn the appropriate signal/cue.

[Dressagelvr]

A pulley rein isn’t used in dressage because dressage is truly a back to front sport. A good dressage rider/trainer knows that front end problems are always caused by back end problems and that messing with the mouth is never a solution.

PS: Rider has her gold medal from the USEF and trainer lives and competes at the GP level in Wellington in the winter. He spends a lot of time doing clinics, so other people must think he is a good trainer.

There are a surprising number of truly horrible trainers with this sort of a resume.

OP, what you describe in post 1 is NOT correct. Worse, it speaks to further short cuts being taken in your horse’s training. While this may win ribbons in young horse divisions, eventually, the holes show themselves later up the levels. These holes are notoriously difficult, or in some cases impossible, to fix.

If you follow successful horses from the young horse circuit, you will see that precious few are successful later in life. I believe that part of that is because of the short cuts taken to make them successful young.

I urge you to find a trainer who is willing to listen to the horse rather than force the horse. While this is always important, it is critical when teaching the fundamentals that will take a horse through the rest of its career.

[Bogey2]

OP, what you describe in post 1 is NOT correct. Worse, it speaks to further short cuts being taken in your horse’s training. While this may win ribbons in young horse divisions, eventually, the holes show themselves later up the levels. These holes are notoriously difficult, or in some cases impossible, to fix.

this is such good advice…my trainer is all about the future.

[Shiaway]

Teaching a horse to back up is really not that difficult or complicated and I can’t even begin to understand how a “pulley rein” would ever be needed or useful for it. You shouldn’t need a BNT to teach your horse how to back up.

If I lived near you I’d offer to do it for free. Would probably take me no more than 15 minutes. I’m not bragging because I’m not all that great of a rider, it’s just one of those things that is super easy to teach to any horse. I’ve taught many young horses to back up (since I was a kid actually) and I’ve never had any issue with it on all sorts of different horses.

Only time I’ve seen other people have trouble is because of the way they were trying to accomplish it. The key is simple. You’re not going to pull a 1,000+ pound animal back with your arms no matter how hard you try.

[LilyandBaron]

I hope OP can use her years of expertise to recognize that winning and being a great horseman or trainer are not always the same. Dressage is notorious for GP riders ruining young horses, and buying made horses to earn their top scores. They then proceed to ruin those horses, too, so they become broken-down “schoolmasters.” I say “notorious” not because they are everywhere, but it is so awful that they exist, people react strongly. That may not be the case here, but the justification of GP success and high scores in classes for the training team against the reaction of so many on this board isn’t really a winning argument. Sometimes horses have strong opinions and it’s kinder to shut it down so that the rider or trainer can soften up immediately, but in general, the idea of such a battle over rein back is alarming.

[SendenHorse]

you don’t fix backing up by torquing on the neck, since it’s not a neck issues.

I think there is a fundamental flaw in your ideas.

I don’t care who has what medal or what, it’s completely the wrong discussion to be having and all the experience in the world doesn’t mean anything if you are going down the wrong road.

I’d revisit sideways leg aids and get the horse “working in all four corners” so the backup is just another way of adjusting where the horse is (ie- you can go foward, step R, step L, or back) This requires control of shoulders and haunches.

Also rider’s seat- people tend to shove the seatbones down, pull, and lean back. yeah, a horse can really move backwards in that scenaio…???

[quietann]

This has nothing to do with backing up, though I agree that a “pulley rein” as in the standard emergency brake seems all wrong for this.

I’d wonder if these trainers teach any sort of “emergency stop.” If they never ride outside an arena, it might not be something they’d think about. Because of course a good dressage horse will always respond to seat cues.

Until it doesn’t. I’ve witnessed a could-have-been-really-bad accident when a horse spooked at a sudden roar of wind during a storm, in an indoor. My friend’s horse bolted… a full out panic bolt. To be honest, that horse may well have had an “emergency brake”; the problem may have been with the rider not knowing it, or being too scared to employ it. I was shouting to her** to try to direct the horse into a circle around my horse in hopes of at least slowing her down, but it didn’t happen and ultimately my friend got scraped off against the wall when she lost a stirrup. She hurt her back and had a very mild concussion.

My horse stopped pretty much instantly when I just started to displace her hindquarters and bend her neck. It was part of her training, and I’ve been extremely lucky that she has it, more than once. She was a bit snorty and eye-rolly once stopped, but her buddy galloping madly past didn’t make her want to join the fun.

** had to shout because it was the only way to be heard above the wind.

[mjhco]

I am a dressage rider and I have used and will use a pulley rein as God intended. To cease forward motion in a very tricky (jumpers) or emergency (galloping with a group) situation.

For teaching a horse to back? Nope. Nada.

[mjhco]

I am a dressage rider and I have used and will use a pulley rein as God intended. To cease forward motion in a very tricky (jumpers) or emergency (galloping with a group) situation.

For teaching a horse to back? Nope. Nada.

[Velvet]

Your trainer sucks. Drop them. Teaching a dressage horse to back like this is INCORRECT!

As for a pulley rein, it’s an emergency aid only and should only be used in EXTREME and dangerous situations (think out of control runaway).

[Lord_Helpus]

I have taken your advice to heart; I have told my rider that she is not to try to back up until he is confirmed from the ground.

And, in working with him 2x/day for 5 minutes each (or less if I see a tad of improvement) I have found that he will now back up beautifully from a gentile rein cue, and voice command. BUT this soft and wonderful response stops at 4’ish steps. So I have stopped at 4 steps until after he has had a full work up by my new vet. I have an appt for tomorrow am.

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8684492]
I have taken your advice to heart; telling my rider that she is not to try to back up until he is confirmed from the ground.

And, in working with him 2x/day for 5 minutes each (or less if I see a tad of improvement) I have found that he will now back up beautifully from a gentile rein cue, and voice command. BUT this soft and wonderful response stops at 4’ish steps. So I have stopped at 4 steps until he has a full workup with my new vet.

If the vet gives him the ‘all clear’. I am going to have a “cowboy” lady who has started several horses for me and I adore her calm but steady methods have a couple rides on him to give me feedback on what she feels. She rides in a bosal (two handed) and western saddle. She believes in teaching a horse to use all his parts right from the beginning. I saw my young jumper softly doing lateral work after 2 weeks — just a few steps at a time, but he was learning there was more to life than going forward.

I believe at this point, Goober can benefit from her approach. If you look at reining horses, the rider never picks up the reins at all; commands are give via the seat and shifting weight.

I would not have thought of this if I had not started this thread.[/QUOTE]

Sounds all positive!

rein back isn’t a green horse thing, if you ask me-- what is your purpose for doing this? because it “checks a box” of what horses should know?

second level only calls for 4 steps, why do you need more than 4 right now?

I just talked to my trainer about this- she said get a GOOD one step, lift the front end. Throw too much in reverse and you loose the balance- they tip over on the forehand. my purpose is to increase collection, not just go backwards.
My horse can rein back as much as I want, but it was a real wake up call to realize that was useless in actual training. Sure, button instilled, got it. If I get in a trouble spot in the trail I can re-verse! LOL

I can add on the one step as we get better balance. Finesse, not force!

Horses don’t like to backup since they can’t see well- go slowly. Remember the reasons why you are doing things.

[vxf111]

I’m a H/J rider and I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone use a pulley rein under those circumstances. I have only ever seen it used as an emergency stop for a horse who was bolting/going to run into something/totally out of control.