I was reading about western saddles, and some cowboys that see a lot of steep terrain, or a lot of stop/starts with ranching, prefer a saddle with forward hung stirrups (John Fallis saddles).
I was just wondering if eventers, who see similar acitivity, have the same need? I know I have read that eventers tend to ride in a “C” position, defensively. I am from the world of ear-hip-ankle alignment.
Just curious!
Eventers do typically ride in a more defensive position with legs further forward. The author name/details are eluding me at the moment (edit: Jim Wofford!), but there was an article floating around awhile back - something like “all-purpose or no-purpose saddle”. In it he described the difference in the balance point of the seat vs the leg position/flap, and a XC saddle or even timber-racing saddle has a seat that is considerably further back than say, a dressage saddle.
Someone more knowledgeable than myself will have to elaborate on whether a balance point of the seat being further back is effectively the same as moving the stirrup bar forward. My inclination is to say no, but now I’m curious how either of those two things would impact the saddle/rider position.
edit: https://equisearch.com/articles/jumping_saddle_fit_111908-11403/ Perhaps only tangentially related to your question, but this is the article I was thinking of. Unfortunately this “reprint” doesn’t seem to include the images he refers to - I’ll have to do some digging to see if I can find a version that includes the images.
Not an expert but… The event rider uses a defensive position over a jump but a forward, out of saddle position when moving over the not very extreme terrain. Slopes tend to be short, gallops may be extended, there are jumps taken from a gallop and jumps that need collection. This demands different leg positions and variable seat. A saddle with a fixed stirrup position to deal with one problem would possibly cause issues elsewhere. ETA Of course, the rider has to be in balance throughout the course.
I’m from the world of ear-hip-ankle alignment and have a balanced jump saddle. I unknowingly had a forward stirrup bar on my first saddle. It didn’t do me any favors and I quickly got rid of it once I realized the issue. You need an adjustable seat for XC, or for that matter, anything else jump-related.
A jumping saddle, almost by definition, has stirrup bars that are further forward than a dressage saddle or a typical western saddle.
If you want to experience the difference, try jumping in a dressage saddle with the stirrups shortened.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
That is interesting: whether forward stirrups = a further back balance point.
But it is still ears-hip-ankle alignment. I believe jockeys also have ears-hip-ankle alignment, it seems like just the flap moves forward.
For the stirrup leathers to hang straight, the stirrup bar needs to be about 4 inches in front of the sweet spot/balance spot. But it would seem to me that any further forward would put you in a chair seat?
I thought the main reason you couldn’t jump in a dressage saddle was that to shorten the stirrups meant your knee would be on top of the knee rolls/blocks – not that you couldn’t do it otherwise.
So it is either the stirrups are more forward or the balance point is more backwards to be successful.
I am truly just curious, I just assumed correct balance was ear-hip-ankle for all sports, and it was just the saddle depth and flap position that differed. I have a dressage saddle, but I also have a western saddle meant for roping that puts me in a better position than the dressage one.
Jockeys definitely do not have ears/hip/ankle alignment. I think you may be mistaking being balanced with being aligned. They can be, but are not always, the same. In fact, the traditional athletic position you’re referring to is not ears/hips/heels at all, but a slight squat where your center of mass is centered over the balls of your feet - much closer to a two-point position than a classical dressage position.
Start standing upright against a wall and then begin to bend your legs, keeping your ears/hips/heels aligned and you will realize quickly that you run out of ankle mobility to do that while staying balanced and keeping your heels on the floor.
Now do it again, but stand away from the wall and send your hips back and shoulders forward similar to the jockey in the photo above. You can squat lower, keeping your heels on the floor. You’re definitely not in an ears/hips/heels alignment, but you are balanced and much more capable of making adjustments than when trying to keep ears/hips/heels aligned.
Lol, true! I wasn’t thinking where their upper body was!
Their heels and butt are pretty much aligned even when racing – their feet aren’t out in front of them, which is what I think a forward stirrup position would do.
Do eventing saddles tend to have flat seats? Is that more important than forward stirrups?
Go look at photos of jockeys - the vast majority have their feet out in front of their hips. The ones that don’t are actually perched on their toes (again, impossible to have the ankle mobility that would be required to do otherwise). If you really want to see some exaggerated position, look at steeplechase riders - they’re the extreme racing version of XC riding and their hips are well behind their heels, especially over hedges to compensate for the huge forces of landing at speed.
Remember that jumpers (in the broad sense, not the discipline) spend most of their time standing up out of the tack. Whereas the seat of the saddle is “important” in dressage/western because you spend all your time in it. When you’re jumping, the seat is only there when you need it. As such, the saddle and the position it encourages the rider to be in, is generally optimized for perfect position when in two point and not necessarily perfect position when you’re seated. Those pancake flat racing saddles would be quite difficult to sit in “correctly” - but that’s ok, because that’s not really how they’re intended to be used.
It is only very recently that dressage saddles have had significant knee rolls/blocks. My old dressage saddle has only very small knee rolls, that do not block you from shortening your stirrups. And yes, I have jacked the stirrups up and jumped small fences in it. I constantly felt as if I were going to fall over forwards.
No they aren’t.
Whatever the discipline, if the horse disappeared from under you, you should land on your feet. If your heels and hips were lined up, with your shoulders in front of them, you would land on your face.
Even if you are standing on the ground, if you put yourself in a two point position, your hips will be behind your heels and your shoulders will be in front of them. Otherwise you would fall over.
A forward stirrup position does NOT put your feet in front of you. It allows you to stay balanced when in two point.
How could you be talking about the alignment of the SHOULDERS without thinking about the upper body?
NO. Eventing saddles typically have deeper seats than straight “jumper” saddles.
No. If anything, the opposite.
This makes the most sense to me – that having forward stirrups or backward balance point is an advantage when the main purpose of the saddle is to be jumping, but it isn’t the best for sitting IN the saddle.
Thanks!
What is the opposite?
What I meant was whether the same rider position could be obtained by forward hung stirrups OR by a rearward flat spot/sweet spot in the saddle.
(I am really out of my league, as I am not an eventer. My curiosity was piqued because of a western saddle discussion that indicated forward stirrup placement - a chair seat if you were just sitting in the saddle - was preferred by working cowboys and I wondered if was also preferred by eventers.)
A chair seat is NOT preferred in any real working western discipline. Yes, if you watch a cutter only during a two minute run, a roper only when a calf is hitting the end of the rope, or a reiner only during a sliding stop, the rider’s leg will be pushed forward to counterbalance the horse’s momentum. But during “normal” riding situations, a balanced position with the ear/shoulder/hip/heel aligned is used. Poorly made, cheap western saddles, especially synthetic ones, place the rider in a chair seat. Good ones are much more similar to dressage saddles as far as how they position the rider.
OK Back to basics.
You want the rider’s center of balance to be aligned with (directly over) the stirrups.
Eventers (and anyone else who is jumping) wants the stirrup bars to be further forward BECAUSE the center of balance/ balance point/sweet spot is further FORWARD when you are riding with short stirrups in a forward seat/two-point/jumping position (compared with long stirrups and dressage position).
The center of balance of someone jumping is FURTHER FORWARD than the center of balance of someone doing dressage. The stirrups need to be further forward so the stirrups are lined up under the center of balance.
I understand. I was speculating whether the center of balance required by someone eventing could be obtained by moving the stirrups forward or the sweet spot back. it is a relative question, and I am guessing different saddle makers approach it a bit differently in their construction of saddles.
I am assuming that with a saddle built to support the perfect jumping position, might not be the perfect saddle for a sitting position.
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