Do I matter to herd dynamics?! Horses behaving badly...

[JoZ]

This is an observation and maybe a little bit of a vent. i was just away for 10 days. I had a horse sitter for the first time who wasn’t a close personal friend or even barnmate. She is someone I’ve met since I moved to my little farmette and new town, and with whom I have TALKED horse. She is a responsible person with horse experience, and the horses are all outside requiring little work. Seemed simple enough.

Well things went to heck in a handbasket pretty quickly. The weakest link mare (older, thoroughbred) came up lame, seemingly had been kicked. Apparently her two buddies, my draft cross mares, had turned on her and ran her away from food. The sitter separated her. By the end of the week I heard that she had nickered for her dinner (huh? she nickers for every meal and pretty constantly in between!). It made me worry that (a) she had really been hurt and (b) that there was a level of aggression in the herd that I had never seen.

I found out today (first in-person chat since I got back) that she later tried to put my young geldings in with the TB mare for company, but my tiny, submissive 3-year-old gelding had gone at her with teeth bared. If she said that he juggled tennis balls or danced a jig it wouldn’t be any more surprising. Seriously, who ARE these horses? I do not stand between them with a whip and control their behavior. They are the most amiable bunch I’ve ever seen. I can’t believe that my absence caused such a kerfluffle. The TB mare and the two young geldings spent the entire winter in a pasture together, all as chummy as could be. I told the sitter this and her reply was “yes, but did she get anything to eat?” No, she starved all winter, I was just too lazy to do anything about it. Sheesh! She was the DOMINANT one in the field and ate whatever and whenever she wanted.

So that’s a nice segue into the vent part, albeit minor, which is that the sitter has a little bit of an attitude about the dynamics, as if she can’t believe I haven’t noticed it and done something about it. I feel like that bad vet/farrier client who says “he’s never done that before”. But they haven’t! So what say you? Acting out? Really missing me for the place I have in the herd (which I must maintain from inside the house much of the time LOL)? Very unexpected.

[TheJenners]

Hierarchy can change. But a sitter with 'tude can also be changed. Snark need not apply when they are being paid.

[maunder]

I feed for a lady down the road when she goes away and a few of her 5 horses always peer at me with interest and then try behavior that I know she doesn’t allow - like bashing the stall door, or as in the case of her giant Belgian, trying to lumber over me to grab the hay in my arms. They will also careen about and make a great show of going after each other.

I’ve been caring for her horses for several years now, and I can just growl at them and tell them to knock it off and they do.

The horses probably sized the sitter up and decided she was the weak link.

[Bluey]

It could be the way the sitter handled the situation, not knowing the horses, empowered the second in charge to take over.
Maybe she walked around feeding in a way that backed the boss and the others decided to take that opportunity to try to move up a rung?

No telling without being there and if you had been there, nothing would have happened anyway, so no way around that.

I hope your mare was not hurt seriously.

Horses have their own lives, you never know what will happen next or if it will make sense to us.

[cloudy18]

My young mare, who is a PITA at feeding time sometimes, turned into a huge ass when I was laid up from foot surgery. Bit DH, ran around like a madwoman, intimidated DS (who is 19, so old enough to handle things). I’m not sure if it was my absence or the spring crazies.

[Manni01]

I agree with Bluey, you have your routine, the horses know you and even if it sounds like a easy situation it is because everybody knows whats going on. A new person (even without knowing it) might change everything

[js]

It could be true that the horses sensed a new herd member (the sitter) and took advantage; however, I would be more inclined to think they might have tested what they could get away with concerning the new sitter but not necessarily changing their behavior towards each other.

[Guilherme]

Horses are finely tuned to their environment. You are part of that environment. Your absence would be noted, as would the presence of a stranger. That can trigger “herd disruption.”

When we rotate from pasture to pasture I note that the first day there is more “movement” and “wariness” in the herd. Even if it’s a pasture they’ve been in before. It doesn’t last long, however.

So, yes, your physical presence makes a difference.

G.

[Pocket_Pony]

Sure, I think it makes a difference. And I’ve got one of those who acts very different depending on who is working on him - he really loves the vet and is sweet with her. The hoof trimmer he likes okay enough and doesn’t try to misbehave. The chiro he is just a pill for. So I can certainly imagine that depending on who (person) is “in charge” or in their environment would have an effect on how they all behave.

If I had such a report from a farm sitter, I might not have her back because I would have to question how her personality fit into the mix and might have contributed to any problems (not to mention the bad decision-making of trying to change turnout partners).

[Christa_P]

Just like kids with a babysitter or substitute teacher.

[IronwoodFarm]

It really can be like coming to class and encountering a substitute teacher. I suspect the sitter was trying to be responsible so I would accept what happened and move on.

Funny story that is semi related. I was interviewing a person as a trainer. I asked her to go into the field and bring a horse up. She would be doing this as part of her job. I asked for the quietest mare I had. Well that mare just hated her and was a PIA to catch and lead. The candidate then lit into me about how rude and horrible my horses were; completely unmanageable by her standards. I said, okay, thanked her for her time and paid her. My DH came up said “Come on,” to the mare and stuck her lead rope in his back pocket. I swear the mare was smirking as she followed along like “Old Shep.”

[Hulk]

Person dynamic matters big time. My daughter used to work at a farm with many stallions. The one young stallion could be a bit difficult for things. The vet would ask her if she could hold him for treatment even though he brought his own assistant because when she was there he was an absolute angel. When she was not he was a rabid bear.

So its probably not the sitters fault, your herd might have seen the new person and thought… oh hum new person = fresh meat.

[ReSomething]

Think of yourself as the regular teacher. She was the sub.

[Ajierene]

I found that even someone who is not a stranger to the horses can disrupt things. Did they wait for the boss to get to the first feed bucket before feeding? Did they start from the opposite end you start from? How do they react to the horses?

Where I keep my filly, I do almost all the feeding of the outside horses and notice that if someone else feeds after not feeding for a while, there are sometimes issues. Also, if horses change fields while I’m away on business, I come back and have to figure out how to feed. They aren’t bad or inexperienced, they are just doing things differently enough.

Also, sometimes the horses just have a crazy day. Every once in a while I have to yell at one horse because they are sure the horse next to them is getting all the good food, but the lower one on the pecking order will not just switch buckets. That is unless you are talking about my filly that will just try to share because she totally passed kindergarten.

We had four mares in one field for a short time and feeding was a nightmare - if done absolutely correctly you were fine but if you had to do something like dump rainwater from the buckets it was just a horrible increased level of difficulty. The problem was mare 1 was over mare 2, but mare 3 was over mare 1, mare was over mare 2…or something…so it was pandemonium with mare 4 sitting on the sidelines just waiting for her meal while the other three fought over which order they ate in. That arrangement did not last long. If you dumped the buckets quickly enough it wasn’t a big deal but if someone went to a bucket and it was empty, they were chasing someone else, who chased someone else, round robin style.

Dynamics also change. The lead mare in one field has not been a lead mare before and the two older horses she is in with that were previously bossed over her are now lower in the pecking order.

It’s all complex and delicate and yes, someone different feeding can definitely have an impact.

[Sweetums_Mom]

There’s no doubt in my mind that the sitter was the main problem, intentional or not. The horses are used to your routine and your body language. My very experienced friend/trainer/boarder house/barn sits for me when I’m away and even though she’s seen me do the feeding routine hundreds of times, she still does it a little differently and the process doesn’t go as smooth.

Slightly off topic…I love reading about other’s herd hierarchy situations and watching my little group. I spend a lot of time on my back patio sipping adult beverages watching all of the nuances and behaviors.

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=Christa P;8669676]
Just like kids with a babysitter or substitute teacher.[/QUOTE]

Exactly!

I am part of a co-op barn. For awhile we had someone who didn’t act very alpha with my horses. One day someone asked me why my two were so well behaved when i fed and so bad when the other lady fed.

My thought? She let them be bad. They wouldn’t have tried it with me.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Christa P;8669676]
Just like kids with a babysitter or substitute teacher.[/QUOTE]

Or a different bus driver.

Kids riot then, ask any one that drives a school bus.

[HorsesinHaiti]

[QUOTE=JoZ;8669283]
…I do not stand between them with a whip and control their behavior. They are the most amiable bunch I’ve ever seen. I can’t believe that my absence caused such a kerfluffle. The TB mare and the two young geldings spent the entire winter in a pasture together, all as chummy as could be. …I feel like that bad vet/farrier client who says “he’s never done that before”. But they haven’t! So what say you? Acting out? Really missing me for the place I have in the herd (which I must maintain from inside the house much of the time LOL)? Very unexpected.[/QUOTE]

I feel for you. But I had to chuckle at these points. At one point I tried to introduce two new, small mares to my geezergelding, who had been a stallion until I got and gelded him. After weeks in parallel pens he would tolerate them in his larger pen for a little while, and then try to harass them herd stallion style. Pretty soon I gave up putting them together, but sometimes during pen cleaning they’d have to and could share space for a few minutes.

IF I was in the pen or my house (open wire for bay windows, backdoor literally 10 feet from the pen gate), even if someone else was doing the cleaning. Because before said geezer would start trying to run the mares, he’d peek in my windows to see if I was there. He knew I kept a training flag by the door and would use it on him in seconds if he harassed the others! If he just heard me in the kitchen, his behavior improved.

If I led the mares through his pen to get out the gate, he’d stand off and let them pass with just a finger-point and stating his name. If someone else tried, it better be Mano and he’d better have a tool close at hand or there would be squabbling.

Not your situation, but the mentality of ‘mom’s nearby, I better be careful’ definitely exists in horses.

[Sweetums_Mom]

[QUOTE=HorsesinHaiti;8670114]
Not your situation, but the mentality of ‘mom’s nearby, I better be careful’ definitely exists in horses.[/QUOTE]:lol: I’ve been able to walk into the paddock and point at one of the horses, call his name then gesture to them to come and sometimes, they would come…I was even able to point at any horse who was starting to crowd around and yell and they would back off…Didn’t work 100% but when it did, I would just smile to myself and think about how much I love this…:love-struck:

[goodhors]

Might just “be the season” right now, hormones high with first heats, STRONG heats in the mares. I am seeing lots of odd behavior with mine, and they get mixed groups changed almost daily. The weak are trying to move up, the strong just walk away. Other times the strong ones are going to FIX that problem with the young gelding right now! It can change daily, surprise me, horses are not always predictable by their past actions!

I spread the hay out far apart, do it when horses are NOT in that field yet. Ours are barned though, get turned out after hay is distributed, so NO ONE tries grabbing hay from me.

Sitter may think she knows more than she really does, and she is a change in the system that may have triggered other things happening. I would just ignore her, though I would take her comments into consideration in dividing up the horses. I as a sitter, would NEVER put horses together unless Owner said I could. There is a REASON Owner has it like they do. Isolating one won’t kill it, may keep it from further damage, so that would be fine with me if there were enough turnouts.

Finding a good horse sitter is HARD. I have been pretty lucky with mine. Only one bad one who roughed up our baby colt. But how one horse person sees an action, reacts, is often very different than how "mom’ of horse reacts to it. Baby forgave us, quit being afraid of people in short order. BUT we never used that Sitter again, you learn your lesson.