Do people intentionally allow horse body condition to deteriorate for training/sale?

[danhelm441]

Just curious, because I’ve come across some very skinny sales horses. It can be hard to see in pics and videos, but then you show up in person and realize the horse basically needs to gain a quarter of its body weight.

These are TBs 6-12 months off the track, and in fairness, maybe it’s just not cost effective to get them to a good body weight before flipping them. But to me, the main hesitation proceeding with a sale on one of those guys is the concern that all the “restarting” training they allegedly got is just a poorly conditioned horse that’s too out of it to have many opinions about the task it’s faced with. Like they’ll jump around a hunter course at an off-property show now, but put weight on and that quiet, sane horse is gone?

I’m kind of asking because there’s one trainer in particular whose sales horses intrigue me, but who seem to follow this pattern. It’s crazy how dead quiet and beautifully performing her baby Tb hunters are, even with literally just weeks of training. But they are all way too skinny!

[Mander]

I think it’s probably a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B (and C, D, E, F, G for that matter)

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and say they’re not “intentionally allowing” the horse’s body condition to deteriorate. But I wouldn’t necessarily go so far as to say they’re “intentionally not allowing it” either.

Especially if you’re only looking at TBs (and especially especially if you’re unfamiliar with them as a whole), they are 1) on the leaner side as far as body type is concerned 2) known for being hard keepers on a good day 3) it’s not uncommon to come off the track with ulcers, bad feet, injuries, etc. that make it difficult to put any weight on and 4) being in training means they’re probably in heavy work and burning lots of calories.

I wouldn’t put it past someone to keep feed rations lower to reduce the “spunk” in their horses, especially if they’re hoping to turn a profit. I’ve certainly met some people like that. But from experience, I can also tell you that even when you’re trying to do all the right things, it can take awhile to figure out what works best for each horse, and even once you get it figured out, it still might take a long time for it to be fixed (bad feet for example, will take awhile to be fully resolved).

All that to say, it’s good that you’re noticing a trend with this person. If you’re really interested in purchasing a horse from them, I’d try to talk to someone they’ve sold a horse to and ask them about your concerns and see what their experience was.

[Scribbler]

Not intentionally. But feed is expensive, and supplements are very expensive.

That said, the horses are likely just still racing fit. Photos? Racing fit horses are pretty hot!

I expect this flipper can’t make a profit if they have to feed the sales horses up to roly poly pet hunter obesity.

[BrendaJane]

and there is the simple fact that different disciplines look at conditioning differently.

Many years ago I saw a cute little OBXTB gelding at a dealer
True to taste, the horse was prepped for jumps. Fine looking critter, light brown jacket, etc.

A couple of years later I saw the same horse in a dressage demo. I wanted to cry, how fat they had fed him. The double chins were missing!

The flip side was when my late sister had her new prospect boarded over the brealing in period as she lacked the facilities to do so propper at her farm.
I did not say anything, but the horse (a near 17h WB) was quite ribbey. As where the other horses in the barn.
And for what it’s worth, too skinny for my taste as well.
But that was what the BM thought was right as ‘jumper rider’

But the truth is,
People don’t have a clue, and quality feed is high, and will get higher soon, with the floods and the fires.

And yeah, if I were to take a horse off the track, he’s lose 95% of his concentrates as he stepped off the trailer.
The energy isn’t needed when they satnd in the paddock.

So yeah, the point it what one understands to be ‘conditioned’
Most horses are too fat IMHO

[clanter]

the TB trainers I know are focused on their stock that is getting ready for the track and those at the track once off the program, the horse rarely even exists in their mind, really had to be an exceptional horse to be remembered

I guess their thought would be similar to waxing a car that in the junkyard

[ghst13]

@danhelm441

I’m kind of asking because there’s one trainer in particular whose sales horses intrigue me, but who seem to follow this pattern. It’s crazy how dead quiet and beautifully performing her baby Tb hunters are, even with literally just weeks of training. But they are all way too skinny!

Is there any way for you to follow-up on previous sales horses and see what they are doing now? Maybe the trainer can provide references or you can find results for the past horses if they are registered under their JC name. If a good number seem to be going on to successful careers it may be that the trainer is good at selected prospects and their weight post-track is irrelevant. If you can’t find any sales graduates out competing that may be a red flag. Of course the trainer has no control of what new owners do with their horses, but if this is a relatively high-volume sale operation there should be some success stories.

[beowulf]

No.

You are likely seeing what is casually called the “race-horse crash” – which can result from any number of things:

1. Not enough forage
2. Not enough calories/quality hrain
3. A physical issue interfering with weight gain
4. High metabolism of a growing horse

Very typical for horses to go through this crash if they aren’t being fed enough.

Most (boarding) barns do not feed anywhere near the quality or amount of food a race-horse is accustomed to, and during that time of their lives they have high metabolisms because they are extremely fit and worked hard. Those horses have anywhere from 20-70lb of hay in a hay net, in front of them, at all times. You will never walk down a shed-row and see a stalled horse with no hay.

(How often do you walk down a boarding barn and see a horse with no hay?)

Most race horses post track are juggling a lot of things – management changes, physical complaints, young horse/high metabolism – and they need to be fed much more than a 12 y/o hunter. They need to be transitioned carefully, and fed a lot more than most boarding barns offer, for quite a while after they adjust to their non-racehorse home.

In time, with good forage and high quality grain, their metabolism tends to slow down and they become more in line with other horses to feed, to get the standard 2lb grain a day.

[BK6756]

@beowolf

In your experience, how much grain (low sugar, high fat) would you estimate for a 15.3h 3 yr old straight off the track? All my horses have 24/7 forage (lush grass paddocks and free choice 2nd cut hay)

My 16.3 h mature OTTBs I feed 8 lbs of high fat grain per day (bump up to 10 lbs plus oil when in heavier work), so I’m used to so called “hard keepers”

My concern was the 3 yr old looks so much smaller so I thought I would overload him if I fed him like the big boys, but I can’t seem to get rid of the “ribbyness”.

[Scribbler]

A growing horse will be ribby, like a long and lanky teenage boy. Give him 24/7 forage, make sure he has the right minerals and vitamins. Don’t worry that he doesn’t look like a chubby middle-aged horse yet. Childhood obesity in horses isn’t great thing.

[StormyDay]

There’s a few reasons (at least that I have found) for this.

1. these horses are used to getting fed 20 pounds of high calorie grain along with a crap ton of hay each day. They then go to a barn that doesn’t feed them that and they drop a lot of weight. These horses probably have gained weight, if compared to a few months ago.
2. Just like a high caliber athlete, the body gets trained to go through more calories per day. That doesn’t stop just because the horse is no longer getting that exercise. It can take quite a few months for the metabolism to slow down.
3. these horses are usually still growing and it’s not uncommon to have a OTTB spring up a couple of inches once they come off the track. Growing takes more calories.

As to the calm baby OTTBs, they are much more agreeable right after you pull them from the track. I don’t know why, but usually it proceeds as follows;
Month 1: you have a frazzled, confused baby who acts as though they have never been walked on a lead or bathed or anything before.
Months 2-6: baby is calmer in environment and acts really agreeable with everything you do. You think you have won the OTTB lottery.
Months 7-12: baby horse finds out maybe it has a personality. Starts testing you. This is when you actually see what you have here. Do not be surprised to find out that your OTTB is entering it’s terrible twos when it’s actually 4. Or 6. Baby horse will have many meltdowns that it actually must work and not spook at all the flower boxes. Hold on; this too shall pass.
Month 13: somewhere around the time that baby horse has started to use its brain again, baby horse will run into a fence/rip it’s shoe off/tear something. Why? I don’t know. It’s the rules I guess. Take 1-6 months off.

[Rel6]

Plus, at least on the East Coast, lots of horse are sold off the track to new jobs at the end of summer and fall so they don’t have to be wintered if they aren’t running well. So you only get maybe 2-3 months of good quality pasture left before winter hits, and then you’re trying to prevent weight loss - and ideally put weight - on a young, too fit OTTB during winter (and possibly one that is used to traveling somewhere warm December through March!)

[enjoytheride]

My TB gets 8 pounds of grain a day, all he can eat hay, and 22 hours of pasture a day. And he’s not race fit.

A race fit horse was likely on lots of supplements to help with his weight and muscle and take him off that, pull his shoes, and let him down and he’s going to be ribby.

[MadTrotter]

My British and AUS friends always make fun of how Americans insist on fat horses, esp trying to bulk up Thoroughbreds. I have seen arguments on this board and others insisting that ANY rib at ALL is automatically an underfed horse. I think it’s an after effect of so many warmbloods, who just have a rounded, more filled out look naturally. And if we are honest, bigger riders feeling more proportionate on a bigger horse.

Just check out any soundness jog in high level eventing. Aerobically fit horses, slim build, often some ribs, more TB DNA than any other non-racing horse sport.

6-12 months isn’t a long time, but it’s not no time. Maybe she would let you trial one, but generally my experience with OTTBs is 6 months is plenty time to see the “real” horse. Posters above also have a point that these are still baby horses, so you also won’t expect them to fully settle until 6 years old. Once they are fully developed, they are often as hard/easy to keep as other sport breeds, of course there are outliers. I currently have two OTTBs, both are fat in the summer on 24/7 pasture and only one needs more calories in the winter beyond ration balancer.

I’ve never regretted taking a chance on a nice OTTB for personality reasons, and generally they haven’t been the breakdown lame cases any more than the freak injuries the warmbloods seem to get more of their fair share of.