DO TRAINERS GETTING PAID BY SADDLE COMPANIES TO BUY THEIR SADDLE BOTHER YOU ?

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8678908]
More specifically the deal they get is that if they get a certain number of saddles sold, as in to their students, they get to keep the saddle free, if not the saddle goes back or they own money on. That is how the contract is written… Essentially a pay-o-la scheme…[/QUOTE]

Yes to this. Some companies will give almost any trainer a saddle, i.e., regardless if they have any clients or not. I guess it’s all good until the contract expires and the bill comes due.

How does it work though when a junior is sponsored by a saddle company? I see some juniors promoting their sponsored saddles on social media. I guess they just get to keep it and don’t need to sell saddles?

[QUOTE=Soaponarope;8678990]
Yes to this. Some companies will give almost any trainer a saddle, i.e., regardless if they have any clients or not. I guess it’s all good until the contract expires and the bill comes due.

How does it work though when a junior is sponsored by a saddle company? I see some juniors promoting their sponsored saddles on social media. I guess they just get to keep it and don’t need to sell saddles?[/QUOTE]

Their are all kinds of deals with trainers and riders.
Usually with a rider the saddle company is just looking for good exposure and the endorsement that a top or well known rider is using the saddle.
Another option is the so-called ambassador program where the rider makes a contract to promote it on social media in exchange for a saddle or some other compensation.
The trainers are a bit different as they often have far greater influence on what their students buy. More importantly students often look at the trainer as looking out for students best interests. However some brands of saddles pay the trainer either in a free saddle or in money to GET STUDENTS TO BUY the saddle they are pushing.
An honest open endorsement or sponsorship seems to be ethically sound to me. It is the current state where certain saddle companies are compensating trainers to what I feel is an abuse of their authority as a trainer to influence students to buy a saddle that the trainers gets some sort of kick back on. Maybe it is just me but that bothers me.

What’s the real reason behind your post? You seem angry/resentful.

[QUOTE=LucilleBluth;8679041]
What’s the real reason behind your post? You seem angry/resentful.[/QUOTE]

Had a bad taste as my daughter recently was pushed into a certain brand of saddle because her trainer said she needed it to ride better. As I was in the industry at one time I knew the tack shop owner and was told the details of what was going on and I felt it was just not right. Maybe I am a bit old fashioned but I think the trainers integrity is essential.

[QUOTE=AprilKisses;8678933]
I am not opposed to the promotion, but it would cross the line for me if clients felt they were unable to choose to purchase a different, more ideal saddle for their situation.

I wouldn’t want to feel forced to “stick to the ways of the barn” if that particular brand did not make a suitable saddle for my horse or perhaps I just didn’t prefer it myself.

As long as it is a promotion and a preference- yet not a prerequisite for that trainer’s program all is well with me.[/QUOTE]

This. If the trainer likes a brand and wants to promote it, fine. If I MUST buy one to be in the program-- I’m not interested. Penny wise pound foolish if a trainer loses good clients over the small commission/free saddles.

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8679044]
Had a bad taste as my daughter recently was pushed into a certain brand of saddle because her trainer said she needed it to ride better. As I was in the industry at one time I knew the tack shop owner and was told the details of what was going on and I felt it was just not right. Maybe I am a bit old fashioned but I think the trainers integrity is essential.[/QUOTE]

Hard to weigh in on this without knowing all the details. If there is any issue with the fit of the saddle, either for the horse or the rider, a more appropriate saddle will make things better. On the other hand, if the trainer is getting every client to buy the same saddle, then it’s a given that the trainer is sacrificing fit for some of the horses, because no brand will fit every horse. And no brand will fit every rider.

I agree that finding out from a third party about the trainer’s financial incentive does make you mistrust the trainer’s integrity, and makes you wonder what else is being “sold” this way: feed? supplements?

Yea, exactly…be even worse , make me question the trainer… I really hate having to buy a new saddle just so the trainer can make some extra bucks, so makes me question what else the trainer is doing to line his pockets… Very bad situation when you cannot trust the trainer.

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8679110]
Yea, exactly…be even worse , make me question the trainer… I really hate having to buy a new saddle just so the trainer can make some extra bucks, so makes me question what else the trainer is doing to line his pockets… Very bad situation when you cannot trust the trainer.[/QUOTE]

Well, I mean, RIGHT!

This whole HJ endeavor is a racket just so you know, and you can’t trust almost anyone IN GENERAL! Sorry to say that, but it’s true. We love our trainer but I see her as exceptional.

The higher up you go, the worse it gets. At top levels it’s common for trainers to be dictators. Everyone must have matching tack boxes, tack, all custom. It looks fantastic for sure. And when they show up at a show the elegance is part and parcel of intimidating their competitors - exquisite horseflesh aside.

Again, at top level, many trainers use these demands as a way of weeding people out. You are going to ask questions, hesitate to whip out your checkbook for all of the above, then they are not interested in you.

Commissions should be honest and above board. But the general rule is client beware especially if you do not have the money to burn. Almost everyone is working an angle. It’s a hustle. So choose your trainer carefully and decide what you can live with.

I don’t have a problem with trainers getting sponsorships, etc. I do have a problem with trainers pushing one brand to the exclusion of all others because they have some sort of deal going. If I went to a barn and every single saddle was a CWD, I’d be outta there.

I had to laugh when my trainer got a discount on her saddle because a few others were purchased in our barn. The fact was that [i]I[/i] was the reason the other saddles were purchased (one was mine) NOT the trainer. I’m also the one that people come to for recommendations, fit advice, etc. I should be the one getting kick backs, not my trainer. :wink:

[QUOTE=SCI;8678872]
I rode with a trainer who was sponsored by a saddle company. He received a free saddle from them each year. When I needed a new saddle after purchasing a new horse, I did buy that particular brand (used). Not because my trainer suggested it, but because I was currently riding in one of his saddles and it fit my horse well and I found it comfortable. My trainer didn’t get a kick back from my purchase and mainly just wanted to make sure that the saddle I purchased fit my horse. Since I was buying used I decided to go with something that I knew would fit instead of having to send saddles back and forth trying them out.[/QUOTE]

Bolding mine

Are you sure about that? Sounds like your trainer DID get a kick back in the form of a new saddle every year.

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8678896]
A bigger problem IMO is that many trainers and most clients are not that good at telling when a saddle really fits. And the saddle reps are invested in claiming that they can make their saddle fit any horse.[/QUOTE]

This.

To get free saddles IME trainers are expected to have a certain number of clients purchase that brand of saddle per year. Saddle companies do not give saddles to people who don’t deliver sales. If you buy a saddle through your barn/trainer, you will most likely pay list price. Any “discounts” are going to your trainer in the form of their free saddle/s. These are just my observations.

Now, if you buy a saddle on your own, you can almost always negotiate a discount. Sometimes a significant discount. If I were in a particular trainer’s barn, I might consider deliberately shopping with a different brand to make sure that any discount went to ME not the trainer. But, then I also am perfectly well qualified to buy my own saddles without a trainers opinion. If I needed the trainers opinion or had them present during the fitting to help evaluate saddles, I’d say they might fairly deserve their commission. Also, I have seen reps from very nice saddle companies sell people saddles that don’t fit, so if a trainer has a relationship with a knowledgeable rep, their advice to use that person might indeed be very reasonable.

[QUOTE=RugBug;8679223]
I don’t have a problem with trainers getting sponsorships, etc. I do have a problem with trainers pushing one brand to the exclusion of all others because they have some sort of deal going. If I went to a barn and every single saddle was a CWD, I’d be outta there.

I had to laugh when my trainer got a discount on her saddle because a few others were purchased in our barn. The fact was that [i]I[/i] was the reason the other saddles were purchased (one was mine) NOT the trainer. I’m also the one that people come to for recommendations, fit advice, etc. I should be the one getting kick backs, not my trainer. :wink:

Bolding mine

Are you sure about that? Sounds like your trainer DID get a kick back in the form of a new saddle every year.[/QUOTE]

The saddle company that gave my trainer saddles exchanged them every year to give him a new one. The old saddle was returned to them, not kept by him. In the years that I rode with him (he has since moved) NONE of his clients bought a new saddle from that manufacturer yet every year while he was in FL for the winter he would get a new saddle. They started and continued “sponsoring” him because he was winning, not because he had a lot of clients purchasing saddles.

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8679110]
Yea, exactly…be even worse , make me question the trainer… I really hate having to buy a new saddle just so the trainer can make some extra bucks, so makes me question what else the trainer is doing to line his pockets… Very bad situation when you cannot trust the trainer.[/QUOTE]

The saddle company paying anyone to help advertise and sell their saddles is not “payola” (such a nefarious concept). It’s a commission. The sales world RUNS on commissions, there’s nothing nefarious about that.

An ethical trainer would disclose that information along with the reasons why they think the saddle is all that and a bag of chips, especially since it might not be so obvious that they are a salesperson for Company X.

It sounds like your larger problem is that you don’t/can’t trust your trainer. If that is the case, about the smallest problem you have is being pressured to by X saddle…

Of all the things in the H/J world, this probably comes close to the bottom of my “That bothers me” list.

As has been said above, trainers usually get merchandise, not cash. Hopefully the trainer is good enough to be sponsored by a good saddle company that he/she likes to ride in. The only time it might bother me is if the trainer is so excited to be sponsored by anyone that he will let a company give him a POS saddle, which he then recommends to his (probably not very sophisticated) students.

Doesn’t bother me to have a trainer sponsored by a saddle builder.

My horse my rules. I buy what I know fits my horses. If that saddle happens to be of the same brand that my trainer rides in, fine.

I do understand a trainer recommending a particular brand. Especially if that trainer is knowledgeable and the saddle fitter / brand rep is GOOD at saddle fitting.

I have seen way too many folks go out and buy saddles that do not fit horse or rider. Better for those folks to take the advise of their educated trainer even if they spend a little more for the saddle. Still cheaper than buying the wrong saddle and being stuck with it. Or taking a loss when selling it.

I’m not sure I’m happy about the “sponsored by” relationship between pro (or even fancy junior) and a saddle company.

For me, the problem seemed most clear when Beezie Madden was close in bed with Bates. I owned one of those (the original, Australian ones). While David Bates had a good reputation as a saddle designer, the balance in my Caprilli was weird. And it had CAIR panels (which I switched out for wool). In addition, there’s no way that tree would fit every horse.

So when I see Beezie Madden sponsored by them, I have to wonder: Does that imply that someone of her caliber and knowledge chooses this saddle over all others? Should I follow her lead because there’s something substantive behind her decision to make any implied claims about the quality of those saddles? And if there’s not an implied claim of quality that her entry in that “sponsored by” relationship seems to suggest, why should I care what equipment well-heeled elites choose? Maybe they chose the saddle for the business relationship and not the product. And if that’s true, and nothing I can do will put me into a position that means I’m as valuable to a saddle company as is Beezie Madden, then how does her riding their saddle imply that I’d gain any benefit At All by buying their saddle?

When this relationship was in play, I did look at pictures to see if Madden was, in fact, riding in one of these distinctive-looking saddles. I don’t recall that being the case.

That all said, I suppose I’d rather have a trainer blatantly hawk a saddle they liked (for any reason-- monetary or whatever, so long as the specify), than have opacity in that “I ride in this saddle and have some kind of relationship with the company… you should buy one.”

And another relevant point: I’ll believe the person who is the best fitter of saddles to horses and riders. Sometimes that’s really a saddle manufacturer’s sales rep (who does this all day, every day), and sometimes the skilled trainer is better at evaluating fit and performance because of what they study all day, every day. But it doesn’t help me to have a trainer who is uncritical of saddle fit recommend a particular saddle or sales rep.

The short answer to the question for me, then, is that I take the advice of a trainer who I think does a good job fitting saddles. I politely ignore or don’t seek out the advice of a pro whose saddles don’t seem to fit horses and riders well. But I don’t think a trainer’s inability to write a good prescription for a saddle (while taking a shot at that) makes them utterly untrustworthy anymore does it make a trainer bad and in-cahoots with a DVM if she says, “Yanno, I think you might want to X-ray those front feet. He ain’t right on the turns.” It’s an informed opinion and a suggestion, not an attempt to take over the power of the vet.

[QUOTE=DMK;8679285]
The saddle company paying anyone to help advertise and sell their saddles is not “payola” (such a nefarious concept). It’s a commission. The sales world RUNS on commissions, there’s nothing nefarious about that.

An ethical trainer would disclose that information along with the reasons why they think the saddle is all that and a bag of chips, especially since it might not be so obvious that they are a salesperson for Company X.

It sounds like your larger problem is that you don’t/can’t trust your trainer. If that is the case, about the smallest problem you have is being pressured to by X saddle…[/QUOTE]

Thanks for response. No not a trainer trust issue that I have. Just the ethics of this “payola” scheme.

I am not talking about true sponsorships, they are great and important to the industry.
I am not talking about saddle fitters or well intentioned trainers trying to help the student.
What this is about is certain saddle companies “paying” trainers to take advantage of their students in either direct or not so direct way, meaning just the power of their influence.
From the jest of the posts it seems ok, as in either oh well the trainers are just trying to make money (at the expense of there students and unknowing parents) - or gee that is just the cost of playing in this game - write the check or get out !
So I am just curious how others and parents feel about this disease as it spreads through out the horse word.

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8679844]
From the jest of the posts it seems ok, as in either oh well the trainers are just trying to make money (at the expense of there students and unknowing parents) - or gee that is just the cost of playing in this game - write the check or get out !
So I am just curious how others and parents feel about this disease as it spreads through out the horse word.[/QUOTE]

Are you only selectively reading the replies on the thread? Plenty of people have responded quite differently than this characterization.

[QUOTE=vxf111;8679855]
Are you only selectively reading the replies on the thread? Plenty of people have responded quite differently than this characterization.[/QUOTE]

Possibly - I guess I was surprised at the responses that were positive and may have generalized a bit.

I am confused why it matters?

Are you equally as pissed when the car salesman tries to get you to buy a specific car, telling you how it will make your life better and how your family will be safer?
It is the same thing.

If you do not like this brand of saddle then tell the trainer no and go to a saddle fitter or tack store and shop for your own saddle.