DO TRAINERS GETTING PAID BY SADDLE COMPANIES TO BUY THEIR SADDLE BOTHER YOU ?

[PROTACKGUY]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8679921]
I am confused why it matters?

Are you equally as pissed when the car salesman tries to get you to buy a specific car, telling you how it will make your life better and how your family will be safer?
It is the same thing.

If you do not like this brand of saddle then tell the trainer no and go to a saddle fitter or tack store and shop for your own saddle.[/QUOTE]

Your point about the car salesman is not what I am talking about.
The difference is:

[1] If I go into a car show room I know that I am looking to buy a car and I know that the car salesman is there to sell me that car. This is clear and transparent.
[2] If I go to a tack shop that has many brands of saddles, I now the person in the store is going to sell me on one of the saddles that they have. This is clear and transparent
[3] If my kid goes to a trainer to learn how to ride and progress in her riding and i hire that trainer and pay him i expect that is the business he is in. It is not clear or transparent that he is being paid off in the “payola” scheme to get my daughter to buy a new saddle so that he can make some more money. I expect the trainer to be looking out for my daughter. The trainer does not declare he is in the saddle selling business, does not offer alternative brands but simply is a shill for the saddle company paying him to do his dirty work.
Maybe you can equate that with honest salesmanship - but I look at it as fallen trust relationship with misplaced trust in the trainer as the trainers is on the take from the saddle company.
As mentioned the trainer is hardly open about such a thing, but uses his influence, often subtlety but unfairly to push a kid into a saddle because the trainer wants more money !
Sad situation when this conduct is justified with analogies to “actual sales people” selling product in a transparent way.

[trubandloki]

@PROTACKGUY;8679964

As mentioned the trainer is hardly open about such a thing, but uses his influence, often subtlety but unfairly to push a kid into a saddle because the trainer wants more money !

The trainer also encourages the riders to improve and start showing and leasing and buying horses, which also puts money in the trainer’s pocket.

I guess since I realize that some trainers get a deal on saddles for selling them I am not near as tied in a knot about the topic as you are… though you knew so why exactly are you acting like it is a big dark secret that no one told you and took advantage of you with.

[PROTACKGUY]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8679969]
The trainer also encourages the riders to improve and start showing and leasing and buying horses, which also puts money in the trainer’s pocket.

I guess since I realize that some trainers get a deal on saddles for selling them I am not near as tied in a knot about the topic as you are… though you knew so why exactly are you acting like it is a big dark secret that no one told you and took advantage of you with.[/QUOTE]

Duh ,I guess because I think it is wrong & dishonest and wanted to know what others thought.

[Foxtrot_s]

These are mostly high end, fashionable, well marketed saddles. A client may not be able to afford such a saddle, yet feels they will ride better in it.

Same happens with horses, said client comes with a horse trainer feels is not suitable, so sells it - through same trainer with commission - then buys a better more expensive animal through trainer - with commission.

Some mayn’t feel they need trainer’s advice, but others are true greenies and absolutely in the hands and control of a trainer.

The whole issue of commissions is kept under wraps somewhat.

[DressageOverFences]

Ive worked with two trainers with these sponsorship deals and while the tack rooms were more or less full of the same brand of saddles I never felt pressure to buy one just to match. I also felt that those trainers used those brands because they found them to be the best saddles for them and their clients.
I did end up buying a same brand saddle at one of these barns, but my budget was much lower than needed and I bought it off ebay (no kickback) and there was absolutely no problems with that (aside from me getting an amazing deal on an pristine saddle and my trainer being envious of my steal! ) She was just glad I found a saddle that finally fit my horse.

[PROTACKGUY]

[QUOTE=DressageOverFences;8680133]
Ive worked with two trainers with these sponsorship deals and while the tack rooms were more or less full of the same brand of saddles I never felt pressure to buy one just to match. I also felt that those trainers used those brands because they found them to be the best saddles for them and their clients.
I did end up buying a same brand saddle at one of these barns, but my budget was much lower than needed and I bought it off ebay (no kickback) and there was absolutely no problems with that (aside from me getting an amazing deal on an pristine saddle and my trainer being envious of my steal! ) She was just glad I found a saddle that finally fit my horse.[/QUOTE]

Yes, thank you that is my point. Most people believe that their trainers use the saddles because the trainer believes they are the best saddle. Really? Do they also know that their trainer is on a “payola” scheme with certain brand saddles that compensates them in some way for every saddle sold to their barn and students. I would think that if this was transparent, people would think a bit differently.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8680139]
I would think that if this was transparent, people would think a bit differently.[/QUOTE]

It is pretty darn transparent.

Maybe the trainer does not wear a sign that says “I make money when you buy a saddle” but if you know your trainer is sponsored by a saddle company you know that they are either directly or indirectly getting money from the saddle company.

It is not a huge secret.

[PROTACKGUY]

Interesting. Thank you for your perspective.

[foursocks]

I guess I don’t feel too bad for people who are unable to do their own research and get outside opinions about saddles and such. If someone buys a saddle because they do everything their trainer tells them to, well…that’s just sort of lame right out of the box.

Sure, the trainer might be unethical if s/he is promoting a product that might not fit the client or the horse, but no one is forcing the client to be a sheep and spend money. I know several pros who are sponsored, one of whom is a very good friend of mine, but I cannot imagine buying a saddle based solely on someone’s recommendation, regardless of who or what that person is to me.

[PROTACKGUY]

[QUOTE=foursocks;8680156]
I guess I don’t feel too bad for people who are unable to do their own research and get outside opinions about saddles and such. If someone buys a saddle because they do everything their trainer tells them to, well…that’s just sort of lame right out of the box.

Sure, the trainer might be unethical if s/he is promoting a product that might not fit the client or the horse, but no one is forcing the client to be a sheep and spend money. I know several pros who are sponsored, one of whom is a very good friend of mine, but I cannot imagine buying a saddle based solely on someone’s recommendation, regardless of who or what that person is to me.[/QUOTE]

I think adults certainly can make those judgement. It becomes a bit trickier with younger riders at a barn under the tutelage of there trainer.

[Calvincrowe]

I think Protackguy has an agenda. You’ve gotten some good comments regarding how it works out in the world of trainers who have high end saddles and work with a rep. Most of us who work with trainers have enough common sense to see that the trainer is there to make a living, either through lessons, commissions, clinics, shows, or saddles. But really–their main income is NOT going to come through repping saddles to their clients! The pressure to buy a more expensive horse, go to another A show, a nicer hunt coat, shoes on a 5 week schedule…the list goes on and on…are the main ways I see trainers “influencing” their clients to spend more money.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8680144]
It is pretty darn transparent.

Maybe the trainer does not wear a sign that says “I make money when you buy a saddle” but if you know your trainer is sponsored by a saddle company you know that they are either directly or indirectly getting money from the saddle company.

It is not a huge secret.[/QUOTE]

I actually don’t think it’s transparent at all. When a rider/parent is told “you/your child will ride better in this saddle” without having done any fitting, etc…it’s kind of skeezy. Nice saddles are nice for a reason, but not every nice saddle fits every rider…or every horse. When someone is led to believe it will improve riding…there may be some truth in that…but there may not be.

Truthfully, you want to improve riding, get everyone a PdN or similarly flat saddle. (the horse might not appreciate that, though)

[Bogie]

While it’s not high on my list of things to worry about, I think for many people it is NOT transparent and they get pushed into buying a saddle that they think will help them ride better because their trainer told them so. There are plenty of barns where “everyone” rides in a specific brand, like lemmings.

Many people don’t know much about saddle fitting so they can’t tell if the saddle fits their horse, and there are some saddles that are known for being more comfortable for riders than for horses. They honestly don’t know which other saddles might work for them so they are making a choice based on the input of their trainer. Sure, some of these are great saddles but we’re generally talking about expensive, high end saddles that are a stretch for many people.

Yes, I think a trainer should be up front and tell a student that they get a commission when someone in their barn buys a particular brand of saddle. But commission issues are far worse when it comes to buying and selling horses! Saddles are just a blip on the radar screen.

I have had the trainer/advisor thing work in my favor. The last time I bought a dressage saddle (many moons ago), my trainer was Renate Lansburgh. I loved her Roosli so I had one custom made for me. She got a distributor rate for the saddles because of her personal connections there – and she passed those discounted rates along to her students.

But, back to the OP’s question, yes I would be annoyed if my daughter was pushed into buying a specific saddle just because it was in the trainer’s best interest.

[Beam_Me_Up]

I think there are different sponsorship arrangements. My trainers have all been sponsored by fancy French brands and have never even suggested I consider one.

But I think PROTACKGUY is getting at an important issue about how difficult it is to enter horses (or the A show environment) as a newbie parent or outsider.

Yes, we here have all been riding for years, and we all know that trainers encourage various transactions (esp horse sales) to increase commissions. And we know that the day fees are in addition to the show fees (another thread a few months back). And we know about all kinds of unscrupulous behavior (from sketchy commissions to questionable vetting to pharmaceutical assistance). But the overall attitude in horses tends to be “this is how it’s done, sorry you didn’t know, n00b” and that can make for a really rough entry into the sport.

[refresh]

I am also surprised at all of the positive responses. Perhaps that is because people who are posting in the forums are clearly the type who have set out on the internet to find knowledge about their horse/saddle/whatever beyond their trainer.

I find the particular way that sponsorship has evolved in the H/J and probably eventing world in the past ten years very interesting, beyond saddles… including an entire generation of young riders being ‘sponsored’ by companies for what essentially is advertising on a tweens social media.

When I showed regularly at A shows up until 2008, CWD saddles were fancy, expensive and sought after. But their sponsorship program really seemed to accelerate after that… I currently live in an area with A shows a few hours away but is pretty much entirely a healthy B and C circuit with lots of OTTBs. The CWD sponsorship has come through like crazy in the past year or two. Almost every “show barn” in the vicinity is now sponsored and clients have brand new 2G saddles. In an ideal world each rider can think independently and make decisions for themselves, but I see huge trainer influence and tremendous pressure to spend $6k+ on a saddle – it just seems totally out of touch for a local circuit that doesn’t even allow braiding. The most pressure goes on the parents who have a horse crazy kid, who understand the entire industry from barn friends and trainer. This is a significant number of people, many more than those who are motivated to do research like COTHers.
I’m not all negative about it - there are plenty of people who end up in great saddles and aren’t being taken advantage of. I like the wholesome idea of trainers getting a break on the high cost of equipment they need to ride, but the sponsorships wouldn’t be handed out to just about any barn if CWD wasn’t making huge profit. Like anything in the horse world, even if it’s not evil, it doesn’t take long to become messy.
Edited to add: In my experience many clients don’t know and aren’t told what the sponsor relationship is and that their trainer benefits from their purchase.

[DancingArabian]

Do you mean a trainer being a paid salesperson for a saddle company? No, it doesn’t bother me much. It would be weird if they were promoting a saddle they weren’t actually using, but trainers have their own bills to pay.

[PROTACKGUY]

[QUOTE=DancingArabian;8680474]
Do you mean a trainer being a paid salesperson for a saddle company? No, it doesn’t bother me much. It would be weird if they were promoting a saddle they weren’t actually using, but trainers have their own bills to pay.[/QUOTE]

Not as a salesperson. The point is that they are not salespeople. They get saddles or compensation not for selling a saddle, which is a transparent transaction. They get money buy “pushing” their students to ride in a certain saddle. Parents think that this is done because it will the student etc. but no it is done because the trainer is getting a kickback from the saddle company. It is all behind the scenes…

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8680580]
Not as a salesperson. The point is that they are not salespeople. They get saddles or compensation not for selling a saddle, which is a transparent transaction. They get money buy “pushing” their students to ride in a certain saddle. Parents think that this is done because it will the student etc. but no it is done because the trainer is getting a kickback from the saddle company. It is all behind the scenes…[/QUOTE]

They do and you are right. Most people though don’t object to it because they are in thrall to their trainer. If they think Suzie will qualify for the Maclay if she just had the right custom saddle, they will do anything they are told to get there. And truth be told, it’s hard to go wrong with a custom CWD. I do also see the CWD tent everywhere as well btw, local and A circuit.

There are kickbacks at every turn in the HJ world. It’s rough and takes a lot of getting used to. Hopefully your trainer has your best interest at heart.

[Foxtrot_s]

I understand the system and understand that trainers have to make a living,
and it is all the add ons, on top of lessons, that they earn their living.

Even passing on a name to someone that they know someone looking for a horse, is enough to garner a commission among trainers. Back scratching.

Let’s just say that some trainers are more ethical, less hard core business
person than others, so everybody knows where they stand. It’s a jungle out there. When you are new to the horse show world you pretty well have to go that route, or be left behind from the ‘it’ crowd.

I am actually glad Protackguy brought this up - BTW, are you a tack rep,
Protackguy from your handle?

[PROTACKGUY]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8680691]
I understand the system and understand that trainers have to make a living,
and it is all the add ons, on top of lessons, that they earn their living.

Even passing on a name to someone that they know someone looking for a horse, is enough to garner a commission among trainers. Back scratching.

Let’s just say that some trainers are more ethical, less hard core business
person than others, so everybody knows where they stand. It’s a jungle out there. When you are new to the horse show world you pretty well have to go that route, or be left behind from the ‘it’ crowd.

I am actually glad Protackguy brought this up - BTW, are you a tack rep,
Protackguy from your handle?[/QUOTE]

No retired from the industry. Worked as leather broker and was involved with many companies in the industry.